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EAA Witness Match .38 Super Feed Issues


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#1 jmcmanis

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 04:32 PM

I bought a Witness Match a couple months ago. I have been trying to get my loads and everything good for competition this coming January. I am loading Starline brass (with rim), 124 gr CMJ Bullets from Montana Gold Bullet, Accurate #2 Powder, and Remington Small Pistol Primers. As of recently my mags arent wanting to load them into my gun. Im guessing they might be my mags. I load them at 1.275. I have completely taken my gun apart, cleaned and oiled just about everything that I could. The bullets stop about halfway. Sometimes they will feed and sometimes they wont. I have tried different springs in it and everything. I even put everything factory back into it. It feels like it is catching on something but I cant see what it might be.

If anyone can help.. Please let me know.

Thanks,
James McManis

#2 NOSAJ19

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 03:26 AM

In 38 super; Try a round nose projectile, load to 31.5mm. Ensure you are making @ 135pf+ & 10lb+ recoil spring.

Cheers, Ando.
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#3 jmcmanis

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 08:48 AM

Ill try it and let you know if it works. Has this problem happened to you? How much powder do I need to load my loads if I change my overall length to 31.5mm?

Thanks

#4 Jeff686

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 10:21 AM

James,

I don't feel like I know exactly what is happening with your failure. Can you provide more details? Are you using factory lenght magazines, or have you added an extended base. What followers are you using? What happens when it stops working.

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#5 jmcmanis

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 06:46 PM

The Magazines are new from the factory. They have probably had 150 rounds through them total between 4 mags. All of them are acting the same way. Factory follower, spring and bottoms. If I load one mag full and try to run it through the gun it might have 1 jam like in the picture or it might have 10, or it may not even have a jam, more often that not it will have a jam though. Ive tried steel casings and brass casings, long loads, and short loads neither seemed to work any better than the first.

I took my extractor out and then took my extractor spring out. I put my extractor in without the spring and it seemed to work without any jams, but, it had problems ejecting with the second mag. Im not sure if my extractor just needs tuned or not.

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#6 Mo Hepworth

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 04:38 AM

The Magazines are new from the factory. They have probably had 150 rounds through them total between 4 mags. All of them are acting the same way. Factory follower, spring and bottoms. If I load one mag full and try to run it through the gun it might have 1 jam like in the picture or it might have 10, or it may not even have a jam, more often that not it will have a jam though. Ive tried steel casings and brass casings, long loads, and short loads neither seemed to work any better than the first.

I took my extractor out and then took my extractor spring out. I put my extractor in without the spring and it seemed to work without any jams, but, it had problems ejecting with the second mag. Im not sure if my extractor just needs tuned or not.

Looks similiar to the jam/ FTE I was having. Filing the extractor as per Henning tech section + a stronger extractor spring helped the problem. What type of ammo is it? Is the recoil spring matched to the load?
"Hotdogs give me the energy to fight off my demons"

#7 JRBean

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 08:00 AM

I had a similar prolem with an old tanfo 38 super open gun. If I used regular super brass this would happen but if I used supercomp or 38tj it ran fine. I think Henning recommends the rimless brass if I remember right.
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#8 jmcmanis

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 09:43 AM

Mo.. I am loading my own ammo. I am using starline brass, remington small pistol primers, accurate #2 powder, and 124 gr CMJ from Montana Gold. I am loading the bullets to 4.9 grains which averages out to about a 1024 muzzle velocity and the power factor to be about 127. I have tried springs from 16 pound factory to 6 pounds, both of them had the same results with the jam.

#9 shooterbenedetto

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 10:00 AM

Put the factory recoil spring back or install a 10 pound spring.
the extractor is too tight..File down the blade very carefully and in small amount.
install and check for feeding. If you file too much, you can compensate by filing down
the base of the extractor. Should be simple. Good luck.

if you have a 38 supercomp or 38 tj, I bet you wont have to do anything
because these brass needs modification where extractor must be tighter
than regular 38 super. google Henning wallgreen and click on TECHNICAL
SEE TUNING EXTRACTOR.

#10 jmcmanis

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 10:09 AM

I put a bunch of oil in my firing pin and extractor. It seemed to help. My magazines are hard to load because im using the super with the rim. That seems to be the problem I am having now. I have to push the rim down a few times and the bullet will point in the right direction. Is there an easy way to load the mags, or something I can do to the mags to make them 38 super rim friendly? Or, should I just try to switch to .38 super rimless.

If I did switch to rimless what would I have to change with my reloader?

Thanks

Edited by jmcmanis, 20 December 2009 - 10:10 AM.


#11 shooterbenedetto

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 10:17 AM

38 superrimless takes the .223 index plate. Thats it.
Dude, hook up and go to an IPSC match..I see that you are in OHIO.
lots of folks would help you there at the match..look for a shooter that
shoots EAA.

Edited by shooterbenedetto, 20 December 2009 - 10:21 AM.


#12 Mo Hepworth

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 10:41 AM

Put the factory recoil spring back or install a 10 pound spring.
the extractor is too tight..File down the blade very carefully and in small amount.
install and check for feeding. If you file too much, you can compensate by filing down
the base of the extractor. Should be simple. Good luck.

if you have a 38 supercomp or 38 tj, I bet you wont have to do anything
because these brass needs modification where extractor must be tighter
than regular 38 super. google Henning wallgreen and click on TECHNICAL
SEE TUNING EXTRACTOR.



So,..you are saying make sure the hook/ blade needs to be trimmed out front? I notice in Hennings picture under the technical section the hook appears to have been trimmed a lot out front.

Edited by Mo Hepworth, 20 December 2009 - 10:43 AM.

"Hotdogs give me the energy to fight off my demons"

#13 jmcmanis

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 10:53 AM

Most of the shooters who shoot witness at the gun club shoot 9mm, .40 or .38 super with rim. Our first Match is January 3rd and I was kinda hoping to get my gun working good by then.

Thanks

#14 jmcmanis

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 03:41 PM

38 superrimless takes the .223 index plate. Thats it.
Dude, hook up and go to an IPSC match..I see that you are in OHIO.
lots of folks would help you there at the match..look for a shooter that
shoots EAA.


is the shell index plate and the shell holder the same thing? i have the lee precision 1000 progressive. can you point me to a site that sells what i need.

thanks,
james mcmanis

Edited by jmcmanis, 20 December 2009 - 03:45 PM.


#15 JRBean

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 10:11 PM

Here is a link to Lee's website. the #4 shell plate should be all you need. I know for a fact all you need is a .223 shell plate on a 650. I would guess it would be the same on a lee. The reason for a different shell plate on a dillon is that the 38 super shell plate doesn't hold the rimless brass as securely as a .223 shell plate does. I'm not familiar with the Lee presses though. You could always try loading some rimless the way it is now and see what happens.
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#16 DownUnder

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 10:12 PM

New mags and older gun? Do the mags have a bit of play and rattle up and down when you press on them? I'm not sure about your particular pistol but with my Gold Custom I bought new mags and put them into an older pistol and had various unexplained stoppages similar to yours. Then I replaced the magazine release with the newer model and the problems stopped. The old mag release is quite a bit narrower than the new release, allowing new mags to sit too low and create all sorts of loading geometry problems. There is a pic of the two mag releases on Henning's site in the Tech area.

#17 jmcmanis

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 10:49 PM

New mags and older gun? Do the mags have a bit of play and rattle up and down when you press on them? I'm not sure about your particular pistol but with my Gold Custom I bought new mags and put them into an older pistol and had various unexplained stoppages similar to yours. Then I replaced the magazine release with the newer model and the problems stopped. The old mag release is quite a bit narrower than the new release, allowing new mags to sit too low and create all sorts of loading geometry problems. There is a pic of the two mag releases on Henning's site in the Tech area.


The gun is actually new. The mags and gun were purchased at the same time. Im going to try loading some rimless and do some tweaking and Ill let everyone know whether it fixes the problems or not. Thanks for the info everyone.

#18 LightningCrash

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 08:51 AM

Had the same problem with my 10mm, it eventually worked itself out. Guess the casings eventually cleared that burr out.

#19 jmcmanis

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Posted 24 December 2009 - 07:44 PM

I loaded 1 magazine worth of the .38 super comp. I loaded them just like I loaded the other rounds. They fed perfectly with the factory spring in. I tried all the springs all the way down to the 6 pound spring.. they all feed without fault. Now Ive got to take my gun to the range and make sure everything is ready to go for january.

Thanks everyone for all the help and info.

#20 shooterbenedetto

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Posted 24 December 2009 - 10:53 PM

I loaded 1 magazine worth of the .38 super comp. I loaded them just like I loaded the other rounds. They fed perfectly with the factory spring in. I tried all the springs all the way down to the 6 pound spring.. they all feed without fault. Now Ive got to take my gun to the range and make sure everything is ready to go for january.

Thanks everyone for all the help and info.


Good!!! if it works, dont touch it anymore..dont fix what is not broken
just a piece of advise.

#21 sinnsyk

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 08:42 AM

Starline Supercomp brass, Round Nose bullets, 1.25" overall length, tune extractor knob to 0.040" - 0.045" for secure extraction from chamber.

Make sure your magazines doesn't have a gap between the top and 2nd round. If you do, make sure cases are resized as straight as possible and spring/follower setup in your mags are set up to push the rounds up in front. All rounds in your mags must support each other for reliable feeding. Nose-diving issues in any caliber and magazine is caused by a lack of support from the round below. Think of it as a lower feedramp. The round comes out straight with a strong bottom support and then starts to tilt upwards and into the barrels feedramp.
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