[ChuckS]

Hi all,

This scenario was repeated a few times at Area 2. You could see T-1 on the approach to the port but you had to lean into the port to see T-2. My questions is this: When do you engage T-1? I saw quite a few folks engage T-1 on the way in but they seemed to slow their approach to the port to do so. I was wondering if it would of been faster to rush into the port to set up on T-2 and hit T-1 on the way out. Both targets were within 3 yards or closer. In at least one case, T-2 was a partial hard-cover target. And, in all cases, you had some running to do after this port.

 port.jpg (12.16K)
Number of downloads: 119 new version:  port.jpg (16.92K)
Number of downloads: 87
Later,
Chuck

This post has been edited by ChuckS: 20 November 2009 - 01:54 PM

[Nik Habicht]

I'd have to know more --- and probably would need to see the stage in 3-d to know for sure. If you really had to get into the port to shoot T-2, then I'm thinking that shooting T-1 on the way out might be faster. On the other hand, if shooting T-1 early let you diagonally cut the corner to engage T-2, that might be faster, as might an approach from the left that allowed you to engage T-2 on the way there, and T-1 on the way past.....

Sometimes there is no "great" way, just nearly identical variations of o.k.....

[NMBOpen]

That would have been Stage 3. Two arrays on the right. Visible target on the right, then in deep to get target to the left. Pull out, go around the vision barrier counterclockwise to get to next array on right, one low open outside vision barriers, then one visible thr port and two more in deep to the left, then move on to last array on the left center of the berm. I thought I saw some videos on YouTube. I could post the video of my run if i knew how.

[s_gorilla45]

It really depends on your direction of approach to the port. If you can come straight at the port, I would shoot T1 as I was coming into the port. If coming at the port from an angle I would go into the port to shoot T2 first and hit T1 as I was exiting. There could be some advantage to shooting T2 last if exiting the port and moving left (right handed shooter). Like Nik said, gotta see it in 3D to be sure.

[shooterbenedetto]

Chuck,

I would dry fire going into it to see if there are any complications to the shot(bumps dips etc.)
You also want to always come in and move out on an open target.(less risk)
If that port was preety big and I'm comfortable to throw two shots..YES. If I'm not comfortable shooting thru a port while moving,
then Stop and shoot T1 and shoot T2, then move. If we had 10 of these target array, I would be faster shooting T1 on the move then T2, PLUS I would be even FASTER If I can shoot T2 on the way out. This way..I never stop MOVING! (Just like my instructor said, it will take you 1 sec to stop and 1 sec to move!!)

Technically for FASTER times..shooting going into is FASTER because by the time I get to the port, I'm already shooting at T2 while others are still shooting T1 then T2.
I try NEVER to stand in one spot and shoot a target, unless its a difficult shot. I feel that I'm wasting sooo much time.


SB

This post has been edited by shooterbenedetto: 20 November 2009 - 12:53 PM

[Flexmoney]

This is one of those things that TGO and Taran do "wrong"...lol (funny how they are so fast doing it )

I always look to take the open and easy target first when coming into a position (and most of the super-squad'ers do too). Doing so takes a whole transition and split out of the position.

And, for that matter, I will usually want to shoot the next to easiest/open target last...on my way out of a position.


TGO and Taran are known a bit for sticking their heads into a hole to take the goofy target first. I think that works if it can gain you a good exit.


When I boil it down and try to look at what is most fundamental (in any case)...I come to what I might call (if pressed to name it) the least sticky principle. The idea being that i don't want to be "stuck" in any position for very long. So, I look at the choke points of where I HAVE to go to get to a target. Then, I evaluate what I can get on the way in and/or on the way out...that lets me be the "least stuck" in a position.

On the particular setup that you posted...that really isn't a test of shooting as much as it is a test of getting into and out of the position.

Of course, you want to be stable enough to collect the points on the targets with good hits. Given the lack of difficulty on those targets, those ought to be free Alphas...just collect them.

So, yeah...if that open target slows a shooter down and they are timid in their setup, then it might be better to hit it on the way out. But, I see an open target like that as an opportunity to come in more aggressively, and still be able to take that target out...while getting set for the goofy/awkward target.

[Blueridge]

Just considering the setup and that I am shooting revolver, I would likely engage T2 and then T1. YMMV.

[davecutts]

Chuck:

One has to slow down coming into the port any way, unless you want to crash into the wall. On stage three I shot the visible target (T1) on the way in at each of the three "ports" call good hits, squirt (technical term I use for targets so close one sees the hits as one shoots them) a couple of rounds at the target around the corner (T2) and explode out of the position. I felt that running up, setting up for the T2 then backing up or leaving on T1 was a looser on this stage your pistol/sights had to go right threw T1 to engage T2, one had to stop hard to hit T2 first, then back up slow to leave on T1. In all three positions T2 could have been bayoneted, even so you had to stop to hit them.

[ChuckS]

NMBOpen, on Nov 20 2009, 12:42 PM, said:

That would have been Stage 3.

Stage 5 also! (The first 2 targets on the right side of the stage)

Flexmoney, on Nov 20 2009, 01:02 PM, said:

On the particular setup that you posted...that really isn't a test of shooting as much as it is a test of getting into and out of the position.

Of course, you want to be stable enough to collect the points on the targets with good hits. Given the lack of difficulty on those targets, those ought to be free Alphas...just collect them.

So, yeah...if that open target slows a shooter down and they are timid in their setup, then it might be better to hit it on the way out. But, I see an open target like that as an opportunity to come in more aggressively, and still be able to take that target out...while getting set for the goofy/awkward target.

Yup, definitely a test of in/out. The shooting was point blank. The drawing I did is "backwards" from the A2 stages so imagine that you depart for the next position to the right. The approach to the port was pretty much straight on in both cases. Like I said, the folks who took T-1 on the way in slowed down about 3 steps away from the port. I am thinking that the "wrong" way would be the way to go. Charge into the port for T-2 and shoot T-1 on the way out since you are going to sweep it anyhow. Since you could see T-2 (mesh wall), getting in to the port for those shots was rather quick.

Later,
Chuck

This post has been edited by ChuckS: 20 November 2009 - 02:02 PM

[ChuckS]

davecutts, on Nov 20 2009, 01:53 PM, said:

Chuck:

One has to slow down coming into the port any way, unless you want to crash into the wall. On stage three I shot the visible target (T1) on the way in at each of the three "ports" call good hits, squirt (technical term I use for targets so close one sees the hits as one shoots them) a couple of rounds at the target around the corner (T2) and explode out of the position. I felt that running up, setting up for the T2 then backing up or leaving on T1 was a looser on this stage your pistol/sights had to go right threw T1 to engage T2, one had to stop hard to hit T2 first, then back up slow to leave on T1. In all three positions T2 could have been bayoneted, even so you had to stop to hit them.

Getting our size mass slowed down does take some effort, no? I am pretty sure that I shot the "T-1s" on the way in.

Later,
Chuck

PS: I need to work on my "exploding"

[CHA-LEE]

For the Stage three situations it didn't make sense to sweep your gun past the first targets to get deep into the port and start shooting the last one first. The sooner you take down the targets the sooner you are done with that particular shooting position. Its easier to shoot as you are advancing into a shooting position and then explode your movement out of it when done with the last tight target. Verses going deep and shooting as you are exiting. There is a lot more complicated foot work and body movement doing that and it leaves you in a stance that is less than optimal for getting going out of the shooting position aggressively.

To see which way would work better from not only a shooting speed but total distance covered in the same time factor, set it up in a practice drill with a Par time. Shoot at the same speed doing it both ways and set the par time to expire 1 – 2 seconds after your shoot is done. Then mark where your physical position is in exiting the shooting position after the time expires. What really matters is using whatever engagement order allows you to move further down the COF sooner.

[Pat Harrison]

Flexmoney, on Nov 20 2009, 03:02 PM, said:

This is one of those things that TGO and Taran do "wrong"...lol (funny how they are so fast doing it )

Me too.
Now then, how'd y'all do the speed shoot?

[Neomet]

Here is a vid of the port in question.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=rwgQlf0kBHg

[CHA-LEE]

Pat Harrison, on Nov 22 2009, 04:50 AM, said:

Flexmoney, on Nov 20 2009, 03:02 PM, said:

This is one of those things that TGO and Taran do "wrong"...lol (funny how they are so fast doing it )

Me too.
Now then, how'd y'all do the speed shoot?

Paper first then steel. It didn't make sense to go deep for the steel first and shoot your way out because the second set of targets requires a larget movement after shooting the first set no matter how you shot it. It would be different if shooting the first set steel first then paper would allow you to back up enough to instantly engage the other side. But the distance was too wide to do that.

[Neomet]

Steel, paper, paper, paper, paper steel. Two reasons for me. The first is my skill level. If I finished the first side on steel and I didn't do a good job of calling my shot I wouldn't know it as I would have moved out of a position where I could see the steel before I would notice it hadn't fallen. The other was if I started tight I could start my lean to the other side as I engaged the outboard paper.

edited because incomplete sentences are annoying.

This post has been edited by Neomet: 22 November 2009 - 06:08 PM

[TWHaz]

Pat Harrison, on Nov 22 2009, 04:50 AM, said:

Flexmoney, on Nov 20 2009, 03:02 PM, said:

This is one of those things that TGO and Taran do "wrong"...lol (funny how they are so fast doing it )

Me too.
Now then, how'd y'all do the speed shoot?

Smooth.

A GM told me you probably will not win a match with a 60 point stage, but you sure can lose one.

paper/paper/steel move paper/ paper/steel

[JohnGaultsGun]

TWHaz, on Nov 22 2009, 04:08 PM, said:

Pat Harrison, on Nov 22 2009, 04:50 AM, said:

Flexmoney, on Nov 20 2009, 03:02 PM, said:

This is one of those things that TGO and Taran do "wrong"...lol (funny how they are so fast doing it )

Me too.
Now then, how'd y'all do the speed shoot?

Smooth.

A GM told me you probably will not win a match with a 60 point stage, but you sure can lose one.

paper/paper/steel move paper/ paper/steel

Chuck, on Stage 3, I took T1 on the ports before engaging T2. That said, set up a similar situation in practice and see for yourself. Record your hit factors so you get some good metrics for comparison.

If I remember, the barrels blocked most portions except for the A zones of T2. "Wild" shots could easily have hit the barrels so us Non-Open guys gotta pay attention to the FS a little more. The theory behind hitting T1 first is that on that type of engagement, most of your time should be spent on the setup for T2 because it is the tighter shot. T1 is considered a "target of opportunity" taken during the setup of T2 with little or no extra time added. And since you've already hit T1 the first time the muzzle passed it, you can exit sooner and harder.

And do this during practice so that you don't have to fret over it at match time. If you pay really close attention, you'll see the same type of engagements at our local match. Norco loves to set these up. They're just dressed a little differently.

Gary

[JThompson]

Neomet, on Nov 22 2009, 09:42 AM, said:

Here is a vid of the port in question.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=rwgQlf0kBHg

Looking at that video, I would have went in slightly right and took the left target first and then shot the one on the right while moving in the direction I had to go.

This post has been edited by JThompson: 23 November 2009 - 12:25 AM

[davecutts]

Jim:

There really was no goo way to do what you wanted in these ports, Gary is right the targets were obscured by barrels/props, you had to get in there and nail the position.

Thanks to Paul here's how Taran did it:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=d0OGfveTDGQ

Dave on stage five, the first position on the right had a very similar set up:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=_wYvjEpYnsY

[JeffWard]

I see what the GM/M Class shooters were doing and copy them...



Jeff

[pjb45]

Thanks Dave.
I will post Don Golembieski's video of it soon. We had several GMs on Squad 1. Don was recovering from a pretty servere nerve injury so his movement was a little slow but if had not come late to stage 1 and had not blown by a target he would have been much higher on the list.

His advice, start hammering the target as soon as you see it.

[runNgun]

I agree with davecutts, why pay for the same ground twice in this case? It is often more efficient to shoot moving forward than in reverse. In this case shooting T1 just before you are able to see T2 is what you want to do. You should still be moving forward on you second hit in the A-zone and the transition to T2 should be all the time it takes to be in position to see the A-zone of T2.

[ChuckS]

Dave,

Thanks for the clips! I don't usually get a chance to do live practice but I did set up such a scenario and did some dry fire by trying each type of engagement and then moving away from the port. The par timer told me that I would be further along doing T-1 and then T-2. After watching Taran and James Ong, I realized I also should of took the target to the left of the final port coming out of the second port. That would of got me into the final port quicker. Oh well, watch, ask and learn!

Thanks all!

PS: I really liked the Taran clip. Notice the hair check at make ready.

[Pat Harrison]

TWHaz, on Nov 22 2009, 07:08 PM, said:

Pat Harrison, on Nov 22 2009, 04:50 AM, said:

Flexmoney, on Nov 20 2009, 03:02 PM, said:

This is one of those things that TGO and Taran do "wrong"...lol (funny how they are so fast doing it )

Me too.
Now then, how'd y'all do the speed shoot?

Smooth.

A GM told me you probably will not win a match with a 60 point stage, but you sure can lose one.

paper/paper/steel move paper/ paper/steel

paper/steel/paper/paper/paper/steel