[RaymondMillbrae]

OK folks,

here I go again. I'm about to kick that hamster running upstairs and get your brains a thinkin'.

Me and a buddy were talking the other day, and we got into the topic of shot groups - specifically "pellet shot" group tightness while in flight.

Here's the question:

If you had two shotshells (of equal weight shot), but one had #8 shot, and the other had #6 shot - which would stay tighter in flight, travel further as a group, and have a tighter shot group upon impact?

In my reasoning, the larger shot pellets would travel farther, stay tighter in flight, and have a tighter shot group upon impact.

Why?

Because I do not look at the shot-group as a whole...but as individual pellets flying with their own individual mass.

In other words, if it was one solid mass of lead (like a slug)...that's one thing. But if they are individual shot pellets - the heavier their individual mass is, the less they would be effected by the air turbulence of the other pellets around them, and the weight of their individual mass would keep the momentum going further before gravity takes effect.

Am I wrong? My buddy seems to think so.

He is of the camps that the denser shot cloud (the higher number of pellets in the shot), will keep the shot tighter-grouped in flight, and shoot tighter groups upon impact.

I know, I know...just go to the range and pattern your groups at different distances.

I just wanted to throw it out here first, pick your brains, and see what yall had to say/reason-out.

In Christ: Raymond

This post has been edited by RaymondMillbrae: 19 November 2009 - 07:04 PM

[00bullitt]

Your friend is right.....the lighter pellets in a more dense pattern tend to group in a tighter pattern but loose velocity much faster at distance. The heavier shot tends to not fly as dense and they actually open more over the same distance as the lighter pellets. But the heavier pellets still retain more energy at a further distance than the light pellets. Basically the lighter pellets travel tighter but peter out faster than the heavier pellets that disperse a bit more but retain more energy at greater distance. That make any sense to you?

I use #9's 95% of the time in 3 gun and use my chokes to adjust the pattern depending on the distance to target.

[TRUBL]

You may want to check this out....it is the sporting clays handd book....talks about SEVERAL things that affect pattern. Specifically page 66. This fits for us as we mostly use these types of shells.

Sporting Clays handbook

Tim

Sorry bullitt....it contradicts what ya say a little bit , unless what you mean is steel shot vs lead for weight....FYI.....I'll try to get back with you soon on what you are wanting from us.

This post has been edited by TRUBL: 19 November 2009 - 08:40 PM

[00bullitt]

Good read Tim. It confirms most of what I have found in my patterning with the shot I use. I use alot of Trap and Skeet loads in mostly #9 and some #8.

[RaymondMillbrae]

Good info, guys!

But could someone explaing WHY a group of smaller shot will pattern tighter than a group of larger shot?

In my mind, I thought air turbulance would effect the smaller shot. But I guess the air turbulence DOES NOT adversely effect the smaller shot...but actually DRAGS the smaller shot.

Kinda like riding a bike behind a truck - it takes less effort to retain the same speed, as you are getting pulled (drafting) by the trucks air flow.

Any further insights?

In Christ: Raymond

This post has been edited by RaymondMillbrae: 19 November 2009 - 09:15 PM

[bigbrowndog]

I would guess because of less shot deformation from bumping into each other, also because there are more of them there to occupy the area, whereas less shot means less coverage.

Look at it like this hypothetically: you have 300 pellets in an ounce with #9 shot, place them in a 10" circle, now the same ounce of #6's has 200 pellets place them in a 10" circle, which circle has better coverage (pattern) the circle with more pellets to work with.

the question is,......how many small shot does it take to equal the work of a few large shot, and can you get that many on target. This is why a single oo buck pellet will drop a plate at 50yds, but you cannot get enough #9's on it to do anything.

[Charles Bond]

Keep in mind what everyone is talking about as "dense". Get two shot glasses and fill one with BBs and one with marbles. The one with the BBs has a lot less air between each pellet than the glass with the marbles and is more "dense".

Shotshell makers have marketed buffered shot to deal with this which is just plastic powder to take up the air space between the larger shot pellets to make the shot deform less and to exit the shotgun in a denser pattern. This is a big deal with duck hunters. Previously Remington even marketed shells with two sizes of shot ie 4xBB since it was more dense in their steel loads. Stuff ended up putting out low energy 4s with higher energy BBs but becasue it was mixed, there was not enough of the higher energy BBs to patten well.

But as Trapr notes all of this becomes rather meaningless if the shot runs out of gas at longer range targets.

Lastly, Federal now has a wad that opens in flight from the rear. I have not shot this yet but it is an interesting concept which should work to keep the shot string tighter longer. Whether or not it patterns evenly is going to be the real test.

[Tom D.]

Get a copy of 'The Art & Science of Shotgun Shooting' by Bob Brister. He did extensive testing where he shot at a LONG pattern board towed behing a pick up at various distances & speeds with many different loads. Quite enlightening as this showed what you actally have opposed to static patterns.

[whiskey1]

I have read the Art and Science of Shotgunning and it is a great book. His research is really relevant to shooting flying targets. Shot string length is very important on rapidly moving targets but becomes less important as the target slows or becomes stationary.

In short the answer to the original question is that smaller shot will keep a tighter pattern "up to a certain point" due to the fact that they start with less air space between the pellets. Unfortunately, for those of us that like small pellets wind resistance will "blow up" a pattern of smaller shot so that it eventually looses in the patern density battle as ranges increase.

I discovered that #9 shot (Winchester AA Heavy Target) adjusted by switching chokes for the particular ranges was just the ticket for the HEAVY Steel plates Andy used a the first BRM3G. However, I don't think I ever shot a plate past 26-27 yards at that match and shot those with an IM choke. They are also just the ticket for Texas Stars at reasonable distances. Unlike a lot of very knowledgeable shooters, I never shoot #6 magnums at a match. I will go to a #7.5 heavy dove for long (30+ yard) steel. If match designers ever begin to reduce the size of steel to the point that I can't get enough shot on one with an IM choke using 7.5, 8, or 9 shot I will go to 5s or 6s. Until then I'll use the smaller stuff to maintain pattern density when shooting at clays.

Trapper is absolutely correct about one pellet of buckshot taking down looooong steel better than smaller birdshot. It is a question of momentum and energy transfer. It takes X amount of energy to knock something over and a heavier projectile carries more momentum down range due to less effect from air resistance. If a shooter could get enough #9 on the plate at that range to equal the energy in the buckshot pellet the plate would go down but the technology does not exist to keep that many small shot on a target that far away.