[Classic_jon]

I have read several articles on storage and did some searches on the board and elsewhere and I wanted to clear up some things that I had some questions on and possibly help some new reloaders with some of the basic safety questions of proper storage of components. Input from commercial reloaders or demo/ord techs would be greatly appreciated!

I found these two articles that were linked in another post on the board on primer and powder storage.

http://www.reloadben...ss/storage.html
and
http://www.reloadben...s/storage2.html


I have heard people say that storing powder or primers in a metal ammo can is bad but, if you don't have space to store it any other way to keep "prying fingers" out of it what are some other options? Are Rubbermaid canisters, ammo cans both plastic and steel good, bad, either, neither for storing components? This is especially true for those that are in apartments as building a proper locking cabinet is a bit out of the question in most cases.

Any suggestions are appreciated! I want to make sure that as I, and others, get more into this sport and reloading that I keep all my fingers and toes and both eyes!

[Merlin Orr]

If you are in an apartment or a residence that is in close proximity to other dwelling you probably should adhere to the rules in the links you posted.

Personally.... With the current shortages and the political climate being what it is today I choose not to limit my supply by any constraint except availability and my funds on hand.

[Classic_jon]

Merlin Orr, on Nov 19 2009, 03:10 PM, said:

If you are in an apartment or a residence that is in close proximity to other dwelling you probably should adhere to the rules in the links you posted.

Personally.... With the current shortages and the political climate being what it is today I choose not to limit my supply by any constraint except availability and my funds on hand.

I agree about the amount off to the point that I am not going to be a "hoarder" that is going to buy more than I can possibly use unless there is a zombie invasion

The ammo can question though is what kind of gets me as I see both sides of it.
To me the ammo can is a tough shell with a closed environment that other people can not get in easily, it is fairly temperature and moisture resistant that will resist extreme heat for quite some time before deforming. On the flip side, since it is a closed environment it does allow pressure to build to a higher level than a less sealed environment would. I saw in some other threads that some people were storing their components in a Fire resistant filing cabinet. If an ammo can is a "bad way to store components" wouldn't a fire resistant cabinet or fire safe allow an even higher amount of heat and pressure to build before failing?

[Merlin Orr]

Heat plus high pressure container = bomb?

Powder - I store mine in open shelves. Big flash and hell of a fire but no explosion. Primers would sound like a war zone but no (I think) big "single" explosion.

Don't know how much or what you shoot but what would seem to a non competitive hunter/shooter to be a mountain of reloading supplies goes down REALLY fast if you shoot 30-50 thousand rounds a year in IDPA, USPSA, 3 Gun or any of the shotgun sports.......or all of the previous...

[Classic_jon]

Merlin Orr, on Nov 19 2009, 03:55 PM, said:

Heat plus high pressure container = bomb?

Powder - I store mine in open shelves. Big flash and hell of a fire but no explosion. Primers would sound like a war zone but no (I think) big "single" explosion.

Don't know how much or what you shoot but what would seem to a non competitive hunter/shooter to be a mountain of reloading supplies goes down REALLY fast if you shoot 30-50 thousand rounds a year in IDPA, USPSA, 3 Gun or any of the shotgun sports.......or all of the previous...

Supposedly if you store it in a sealed container like an ammo can, if the powder ignites it will blow like a bomb because the cans are not designed to "fail" before too much pressure builds up. To me, if the powder is caught in a fire at that point... it is still going to go boom...just how big and forceful a boom is the question.



On the mountain of components: Yep I am positive I don't shoot as much as you and some others on the board!!!

The other day at the office they asked me how much "ready" ammo I had and I thought a couple of people were going to have a coronary when I said "Hmmm, about 1,800 rounds of ammo for competition and another 800 or so of factory ammo for just banging around." I then had to explain that if I competed in all 4 of the normal matches my IDPA club has at about 80 rounds minimum and did any practice at all, I would go through ~550 rounds *minimum* a month... they started to understand that at that point of use...1800 is not a whole lot!

Speaking of which, I need to make another MG order and try out some BBI bullets as well.... Since I got a reloading press I seem to shoot more for some reason...

This post has been edited by Classic_jon: 19 November 2009 - 03:12 PM

[slflr]

I store my primers in a old refrigerator.

[LPatterson]

Given that storing primers and powder in surplus ammo cans is not a good idea from an explosive standpoint, my primary concern is moisture since most of the supply is stored in an unheated storage shed. The shed is detached from the house and 8# cans are stored in another storage shed. I keep a working supply of powder in 1# cans on a porch, primers (usually 1K or 2 per type) are on a book case in the computer room.

Should there be a fire the FD would be advised not to try to enter the house or get near the shed until the fire is out. Nothing I have is irreplaceable.

[Classic_jon]

LPatterson, on Nov 20 2009, 08:28 AM, said:

Given that storing primers and powder in surplus ammo cans is not a good idea from an explosive standpoint, my primary concern is moisture since most of the supply is stored in an unheated storage shed. The shed is detached from the house and 8# cans are stored in another storage shed. I keep a working supply of powder in 1# cans on a porch, primers (usually 1K or 2 per type) are on a book case in the computer room.

Should there be a fire the FD would be advised not to try to enter the house or get near the shed until the fire is out. Nothing I have is irreplaceable.

These are the types of answers I am looking for. The purpose of this is to learn! I am not an expert on this so I want to ask people that are or should be knowledgeable on it.


I am trying to learn the Why of why you need to store things a specific way, and not "because that is what I heard So and so say" or "but everyone knows that is true!"

Let me ask a pointed question about the ammo cans that I hope someone can answer. I keep hearing about how it is bad to store primers and powder in them but...doesn't the military do just that with powder storage? Would not the result of a cookoff of a can of bullets with a total of a pound of powder in them be in the same range as that of a pound of smokeless powder in a sealed environment with little air?
I am specifically referring to smokeless and not black powder because I know that there is quite a difference between the two in burn rates and how "excited" a reaction they have. I was always taught the fire triangle. You have to have heat, air, and fuel. If you remove any two of those... poof no fire. If the can is sealed, very limited air supply. If the can is sealed, no heat source can easily be applied to the powder. To me the force of an explosion will be less with just the powder bottle top popping, but the chance of a small fire burning through the bottle is higher in my opinion.

Is there a study somewhere that someone can link to from the military that says one way or the other about ammo cans and what they were designed to do in the case of a "cookoff" event like there would be in a fire?

All this being said, no matter what I agree that if there is a fire where there are "accelerants" like powder and primers they need to be stored "safely" and that is why I am trying to get to a fairly *concrete* answer here, for safety.

This post has been edited by Classic_jon: 20 November 2009 - 08:54 AM

[BMartens]

This should answer a lot of your questions.

Loaded ammo in an ammo can is not the same as loose smokeless powder, or several cans or bottles stored in the same ammo can. Smokeless powder burns at a variable rate and as pressure increases, created by the expanding gasses from the burning, the burn rate increases. Pressure increases, burn rate increases, pressure increases, until something lets go and that is whatever container is holding the powder, be it a brass cartridge case, a storage cabinet or an ammo box.

If a loose round cooks off you are more concerened with the brass case than the bullet. The lightest piece of the loaded round, the brass case, is moved more easily by the pressure so it goes faster and farther than the bullet.

 SAAMI_Smokeless_Powder_.pdf (85.69K)
Number of downloads: 28

[diablodawg]

Classic_jon, on Nov 20 2009, 07:42 AM, said:

These are the types of answers I am looking for. The purpose of this is to learn! I am not an expert on this so I want to ask people that are or should be knowledgeable on it.


I am trying to learn the Why of why you need to store things a specific way, and not "because that is what I heard So and so say" or "but everyone knows that is true!"

Let me ask a pointed question about the ammo cans that I hope someone can answer. I keep hearing about how it is bad to store primers and powder in them but...doesn't the military do just that with powder storage? Would not the result of a cookoff of a can of bullets with a total of a pound of powder in them be in the same range as that of a pound of smokeless powder in a sealed environment with little air?
I am specifically referring to smokeless and not black powder because I know that there is quite a difference between the two in burn rates and how "excited" a reaction they have. I was always taught the fire triangle. You have to have heat, air, and fuel. If you remove any two of those... poof no fire. If the can is sealed, very limited air supply. If the can is sealed, no heat source can easily be applied to the powder. To me the force of an explosion will be less with just the powder bottle top popping, but the chance of a small fire burning through the bottle is higher in my opinion.

Is there a study somewhere that someone can link to from the military that says one way or the other about ammo cans and what they were designed to do in the case of a "cookoff" event like there would be in a fire?

All this being said, no matter what I agree that if there is a fire where there are "accelerants" like powder and primers they need to be stored "safely" and that is why I am trying to get to a fairly *concrete* answer here, for safety.

The idea isn't that the powder would spontaneously combust, but that an outside heat source (i.e. a house fire) would cause it to explode. Loaded small arms rounds are fairly difficult to cook off compared to bare primers or powder, not to mention not all of them would go off at once; there would be at least momentary gaps between combustions of each round, whereas a single can would go up at once. They are not designed to take fire at all, hence the safety precautions around their storage and use. When dealing with extremely large amounts, tank rounds and naval guns rounds, for example; there is always a venting system of some kind to vent explosive concussion and gas away from the personnel around (M1 Abrams ammo compartment or a destroyer turret elevator system.) A plastic container would be equally as waterproof and would most likely melt open prior to detonation. This can be seen in the industries' swice to plastic containers on powder a while ago.

[raz-0]

I looked into this, and lacking kids, I just leave it on shelves in the palstic bottles.

Were I actually concerned about kids, the answer would to be get a proper magazine, or what I prefered, a wire mesh locker.

Neither is particularly cheap though.

[Classic_jon]

diablodawg, on Nov 20 2009, 01:17 PM, said:

Classic_jon, on Nov 20 2009, 07:42 AM, said:

These are the types of answers I am looking for. The purpose of this is to learn! I am not an expert on this so I want to ask people that are or should be knowledgeable on it.


I am trying to learn the Why of why you need to store things a specific way, and not "because that is what I heard So and so say" or "but everyone knows that is true!"

Let me ask a pointed question about the ammo cans that I hope someone can answer. I keep hearing about how it is bad to store primers and powder in them but...doesn't the military do just that with powder storage? Would not the result of a cookoff of a can of bullets with a total of a pound of powder in them be in the same range as that of a pound of smokeless powder in a sealed environment with little air?
I am specifically referring to smokeless and not black powder because I know that there is quite a difference between the two in burn rates and how "excited" a reaction they have. I was always taught the fire triangle. You have to have heat, air, and fuel. If you remove any two of those... poof no fire. If the can is sealed, very limited air supply. If the can is sealed, no heat source can easily be applied to the powder. To me the force of an explosion will be less with just the powder bottle top popping, but the chance of a small fire burning through the bottle is higher in my opinion.

Is there a study somewhere that someone can link to from the military that says one way or the other about ammo cans and what they were designed to do in the case of a "cookoff" event like there would be in a fire?

All this being said, no matter what I agree that if there is a fire where there are "accelerants" like powder and primers they need to be stored "safely" and that is why I am trying to get to a fairly *concrete* answer here, for safety.

The idea isn't that the powder would spontaneously combust, but that an outside heat source (i.e. a house fire) would cause it to explode. Loaded small arms rounds are fairly difficult to cook off compared to bare primers or powder, not to mention not all of them would go off at once; there would be at least momentary gaps between combustions of each round, whereas a single can would go up at once. They are not designed to take fire at all, hence the safety precautions around their storage and use. When dealing with extremely large amounts, tank rounds and naval guns rounds, for example; there is always a venting system of some kind to vent explosive concussion and gas away from the personnel around (M1 Abrams ammo compartment or a destroyer turret elevator system.) A plastic container would be equally as waterproof and would most likely melt open prior to detonation. This can be seen in the industries' swice to plastic containers on powder a while ago.

But in the ammo can example, wouldn't the design of the can allow for the pressure to be "vented" before the point at which it would go "boom?" I will agree that a plastic container would be much much less likely to build up an appreciable pressure but how much pressure will a metal ammo can allow to happen before it "ruptures violently?" I know that tanks and ships powder mags have blow off panels but would not the latch on an ammo can operate in a similar manner? The pressure should go to the weakest link in the chain , which should be the seal and then the latches.

The thing that gets me about a plastic container is that it is more susceptible to heat or, damage than a steel one. Let me give this example and see what you think.
Person is walking down the hallway with a *plastic* container of 5000 primers and trips, it hits the ground and worst case happens and they chain react. I would think that in the plastic one you would have all kinds of shrapnel flying around... with the metal one...it probably would contain quite a bit of it or at least direct it out the top of the container due to its structural integrity.

If I am wrong, please tell me.

[Classic_jon]

BMartens, on Nov 20 2009, 01:15 PM, said:

This should answer a lot of your questions.

Loaded ammo in an ammo can is not the same as loose smokeless powder, or several cans or bottles stored in the same ammo can. Smokeless powder burns at a variable rate and as pressure increases, created by the expanding gasses from the burning, the burn rate increases. Pressure increases, burn rate increases, pressure increases, until something lets go and that is whatever container is holding the powder, be it a brass cartridge case, a storage cabinet or an ammo box.

If a loose round cooks off you are more concerened with the brass case than the bullet. The lightest piece of the loaded round, the brass case, is moved more easily by the pressure so it goes faster and farther than the bullet.

SAAMI_Sm..._Powder_.pdf

Understood, and you do raise a valid point!
I was mainly focused on the explosive capability of the powder itself and not the brass or the bullets in that example.

I guess the question at that point would be if there is enough air inside of a sealed container to allow the smokeless powder to build up to an explosive level or if it will just ...burn... the next question is would that burn snuff itself out from the burned gasses BEFORE it reached the point if rupturing the can, if the can was well sealed?

Edited to add:
Thank you for the link, it is most informative
I read this and it got me wondering if "ammo cans" of any type are DOT or similar approved.
"DOT-approved containers are constructed to open up at low internal pressures to avoid the effects normally produced by the rupture or bursting of strong containers."

Seriously, think about it. If the military ships ammo to places in ammo cans on US roads...the can *should* be DOT approved, right?

This post has been edited by Classic_jon: 20 November 2009 - 02:10 PM

[BMartens]

Classic_jon, on Nov 20 2009, 03:05 PM, said:

BMartens, on Nov 20 2009, 01:15 PM, said:

This should answer a lot of your questions.

Loaded ammo in an ammo can is not the same as loose smokeless powder, or several cans or bottles stored in the same ammo can. Smokeless powder burns at a variable rate and as pressure increases, created by the expanding gasses from the burning, the burn rate increases. Pressure increases, burn rate increases, pressure increases, until something lets go and that is whatever container is holding the powder, be it a brass cartridge case, a storage cabinet or an ammo box.

If a loose round cooks off you are more concerened with the brass case than the bullet. The lightest piece of the loaded round, the brass case, is moved more easily by the pressure so it goes faster and farther than the bullet.

SAAMI_Sm..._Powder_.pdf

Understood, and you do raise a valid point!
I was mainly focused on the explosive capability of the powder itself and not the brass or the bullets in that example.

I guess the question at that point would be if there is enough air inside of a sealed container to allow the smokeless powder to build up to an explosive level or if it will just ...burn... the next question is would that burn snuff itself out from the burned gasses BEFORE it reached the point if rupturing the can, if the can was well sealed?

Edited to add:
Thank you for the link, it is most informative
I read this and it got me wondering if "ammo cans" of any type are DOT or similar approved.
"DOT-approved containers are constructed to open up at low internal pressures to avoid the effects normally produced by the rupture or bursting of strong containers."

Seriously, think about it. If the military ships ammo to places in ammo cans on US roads...the can *should* be DOT approved, right?

No air required for smokeless powder, it is it's own oxidizer, all it needs is ignition. The only thing that helps inside of any container is if there is enough space to allow for the expanding gasses or enough strength to contain them.

Military ammo cans are for loaded ammo, not powder and therefore, a different set of rules. And during peacetime the Armed services do a pretty good job of following DOT guidelines, at any other time or place, they carry what they need to where they are going, and they never carry the fuses on the same supply vehicle as the explosives, cardinal rule on that one.

[bossharley]

FYI a buddy of mine is a firefighter and I asked him regarding their concern about ammo, powder etc He said there were many other items in the house that scare them much more. #1 were propane canisters, other things were cans of various paints, etc.

[Classic_jon]

[/quote]
No air required for smokeless powder, it is it's own oxidizer, all it needs is ignition. The only thing that helps inside of any container is if there is enough space to allow for the expanding gasses or enough strength to contain them.

Military ammo cans are for loaded ammo, not powder and therefore, a different set of rules. And during peacetime the Armed services do a pretty good job of following DOT guidelines, at any other time or place, they carry what they need to where they are going, and they never carry the fuses on the same supply vehicle as the explosives, cardinal rule on that one.
[/quote]

I had not really thought about the oxidizer being in the powder when I first asked this but that makes sense.

So if that is the case then the key would be if the ammo can is strong enough to contain the burn and then vent if it goes above a "safe" margin? I do understand the different set of rules but, to me at least, at least *some* of the rules should be the same since we are still talking about the same powder, (and for ease of this discussion) the same amount of powder.

Let me ask this question:
If we had 1000 rounds in an ammo can and it was heated to the point where the rounds spontaneously ignited, what would be the explosive potential difference between that "explosion" and 1000 rounds worth of smokeless powder in a plastic powder can that is in the same exact type of ammo can heated to the same ignition point?

[Classic_jon]

bossharley, on Nov 21 2009, 03:09 PM, said:

FYI a buddy of mine is a firefighter and I asked him regarding their concern about ammo, powder etc He said there were many other items in the house that scare them much more. #1 were propane canisters, other things were cans of various paints, etc.

I agree totally! There are a lot of other things that are more flamable than smokeless powder but, I am asking these questions for safety since those that reload are actually handling them on a regular basis. Not to mention that, in talking to people, a many do not consider this question when they think of safety. They really only think about it when loading the primer tubes or running the press and not so much during the times they are not "hands on"

[Hank Ellis]

bossharley, on Nov 21 2009, 03:09 PM, said:

FYI a buddy of mine is a firefighter and I asked him regarding their concern about ammo, powder etc He said there were many other items in the house that scare them much more. #1 were propane canisters, other things were cans of various paints, etc.

Had a similiar conversation with another firefighter. Same thing. Propane canisters were #1. His suggestion for me was to get all the really flammables in one place. Powder, primers, propane, paints, ammo, gasoline, etc. Get all of it in more or less one location which in my case is a detached garage. Easier to fight that way. He also suggested that I build a couple powder magazines of 1" thick plywood to help prevent ignition of the flammables in the first place. One for powder the other for primers.

He asked if I had a fire extinguisher. Yes. Just one? Yes. Not enough. Get a couple more so that you're no more than a few steps away from one. One at each entrance. One at the reload bench. One in the middle.

[Classic_jon]

Hank Ellis, on Nov 22 2009, 11:21 AM, said:

bossharley, on Nov 21 2009, 03:09 PM, said:

FYI a buddy of mine is a firefighter and I asked him regarding their concern about ammo, powder etc He said there were many other items in the house that scare them much more. #1 were propane canisters, other things were cans of various paints, etc.

Had a similiar conversation with another firefighter. Same thing. Propane canisters were #1. His suggestion for me was to get all the really flammables in one place. Powder, primers, propane, paints, ammo, gasoline, etc. Get all of it in more or less one location which in my case is a detached garage. Easier to fight that way. He also suggested that I build a couple powder magazines of 1" thick plywood to help prevent ignition of the flammables in the first place. One for powder the other for primers.

He asked if I had a fire extinguisher. Yes. Just one? Yes. Not enough. Get a couple more so that you're no more than a few steps away from one. One at each entrance. One at the reload bench. One in the middle.

I have a little 1lb ABC extinguisher next to me and a 5lb on the other side of the counter. Me paranoid? ....nahhhhh

[Todd B.]

I live in Southern California where it gets pretty warm in the summer. Average temps vary from a low of 35 in winter to a high of 100+ in summer.

I have small kids and no real good place to store powder and primers in the house. (I'm married in case you could not guess) My garage is partially insulated, but still get pretty warm in summer. I'd guess about 120 degrees on a real hot day. My loading bench is in the garage.

My question is; How hot is too hot for primer and powder storage?

I'm planning on building thick (1"+) wood locking cabinets that would be vented to release any pressure.

thanks in advance.
-todd

[TimKS]

Someone mentioned an old fridge. That's a good idea. They can be fitted with a padlock and kept pretty secure & dry.

[jkatz44]

TimKS, on Dec 18 2009, 10:46 PM, said:

Someone mentioned an old fridge. That's a good idea. They can be fitted with a padlock and kept pretty secure & dry.

This might be a stupid question but I will ask it. I know that bullets carry lead so I was wondering where is the best place to store bullets?

[Dodge DeBoulet]

jkatz44, on Jan 17 2010, 05:38 PM, said:

TimKS, on Dec 18 2009, 10:46 PM, said:

Someone mentioned an old fridge. That's a good idea. They can be fitted with a padlock and kept pretty secure & dry.

This might be a stupid question but I will ask it. I know that bullets carry lead so I was wondering where is the best place to store bullets?

Store 'em where you can get at 'em when you need to reload. Don't worry about the lead, unless you've got a penchant for sticking things in your mouth (or little ones that might).

The lead isn't going to jump off the bullets into your bloodstream all by itself.

[earlbob]

The fridge idea might be better if some way for gases to properly vent from it while the door is padlocked was provided. In the workplace explosive storage containers generally have doors that are free swinging so that a fire will not result in the container bursting like a bomb with shrapnel flying about having the potential to maim and kill. A locked fridge would be a bomb and not a safe place for storage of explosives. I have seen a large multi-story structure burst when the pressure relief vents failed. No one was hurt but the company sustained many millions of dollars in repair bills. Pressure is real and it is dangerous. I would even be hesitant to assume I have sufficient knowledge to jury rig a fridge to release the pressure from 8 lbs of gunpowder that ignites. Who knows but an engineer how big to make the opening so the pressure can vent before the fridge blows? I don't that's for sure.

I think this may be a good place for Jay Worden to offer some counsel, if I recall he is a fireman and might want to chip in...
earl

This post has been edited by earlbob: 03 March 2010 - 04:07 PM