[kmca]

I'm shooting an XD-9 Tactical in production and Sunday, I had a few tumbling bullets. Here are the specs:
1. Winchester brass
2. Bear Creek 125 moly truncated cone
3. Winchester small pistol primer
4. 3.2 gr Clays
5. 1.100 O.A.L. (any longer and the don't go bang)
6. Crimp = .378

I measured a few bullets and they're .3575.
I slugged the barrel and it's .349/.355

Can somebody tell me what I'm doing wrong?

[robertbank]

kmca, on Nov 17 2009, 05:45 PM, said:

I'm shooting an XD-9 Tactical in production and Sunday, I had a few tumbling bullets. Here are the specs:
1. Winchester brass
2. Bear Creek 125 moly truncated cone
3. Winchester small pistol primer
4. 3.2 gr Clays
5. 1.100 O.A.L. (any longer and the don't go bang)
6. Crimp = .378

I measured a few bullets and they're .3575.
I slugged the barrel and it's .349/.355

Can somebody tell me what I'm doing wrong?

I suspect your barrel is in fact .355. If that is the case the bullets are simply to close to bore diameter and they just aren't taking the rifling enough to stabilize the bullets in flight. ARe you experiencing leading? This would be a sure sign of gas cutting which agains would suggest to small of bullet.

Take Care

Bob

[kmca]

No leading problems. I always thought that lead bullets were supposed to be .356.

[Toolguy]

According to the information given, the barrel is .355 which is correct for a 9mm. The bullets are .3575, good for a .38, but kind of big for
9mm. I would suggest resizing some of those bullets to .356 and see how they do. You could also shoot some jacketed 9mm bullets.
If they work fine, it's the bullets, not the gun.

[kmca]

It shoots 124gr Montana Gold JHP just fine. I guess I was just curious if a "larger than spec" bullet would cause tumbling.

Thanks guys.

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: I think you have answered your own question. If the bullet is that much larger and you are wearing the moly off one side then it would cause drag. The outcome would be tumbling since the bullet is no longer round either. I use Precision bullets and never had a tumbling problem. I have also heard that the XD's and some M&P's don't like 147 grain bullets with the longer barrels. Hope this helps. Thanks, Eric

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: I forgot to add to use a slower powder and see how that works. Thanks, Eric

[David Sinko]

Lately I've been losing sleep over a similar problem. I just loaded up 1000 D & J 122 gr. FP sized .356" over a good dose of 231. I shot them out of my S&W 940 at 50 yards and some of them were tumbling. Oddly enough the same powder charge with 124 gr. LRN bullets shoots fine. I gave some of the FP to my brother to try out of his two 9mm carbines and the tumbling was even more severe, with every shot hitting sideways. The problem does not appear to be leading. Would the FP profile of the bullet have something to do with it? It shouldn't, but I can't think of any other reason.

Dave Sinko

[lneel]

kmca, on Nov 17 2009, 05:45 PM, said:

I'm shooting an XD-9 Tactical in production and Sunday, I had a few tumbling bullets. Here are the specs:
1. Winchester brass
2. Bear Creek 125 moly truncated cone
3. Winchester small pistol primer
4. 3.2 gr Clays
5. 1.100 O.A.L. (any longer and the don't go bang)......What do you mean? OAL should have NO impact on the round firing. I run ALL my 9mm @ 1.150"
6. Crimp = .378

I measured a few bullets and they're .3575.
I slugged the barrel and it's .349/.355

Can somebody tell me what I'm doing wrong?

I suspect due to the short load you are "crimping" the cone of the bullet more than needed by having it that deep in the case.

Lee

[Sarge]

lneel, on Nov 17 2009, 08:17 PM, said:

kmca, on Nov 17 2009, 05:45 PM, said:

I'm shooting an XD-9 Tactical in production and Sunday, I had a few tumbling bullets. Here are the specs:
1. Winchester brass
2. Bear Creek 125 moly truncated cone
3. Winchester small pistol primer
4. 3.2 gr Clays
5. 1.100 O.A.L. (any longer and the don't go bang)......What do you mean? OAL should have NO impact on the round firing. I run ALL my 9mm @ 1.150"
6. Crimp = .378

I measured a few bullets and they're .3575.
I slugged the barrel and it's .349/.355

Can somebody tell me what I'm doing wrong?

I suspect due to the short load you are "crimping" the cone of the bullet more than needed by having it that deep in the case.

Lee

Not so fast Ineel. I learned myself this past week that rounds too long will fail to ignite if the bullet touches the rifling at all. The slide does not go all the way forward sometimes causing a light strike issue. I shortened them up and cured the problem for now. I too have run roundnose ammo at 1.13-1.15 but the precision TC's had to be shortened to 1.11 to keep the shoulder off of the rifling and to run clean in my M&P.

This post has been edited by sandman: 17 November 2009 - 06:53 PM

[lneel]

sandman, on Nov 17 2009, 07:50 PM, said:

lneel, on Nov 17 2009, 08:17 PM, said:

kmca, on Nov 17 2009, 05:45 PM, said:

I'm shooting an XD-9 Tactical in production and Sunday, I had a few tumbling bullets. Here are the specs:
1. Winchester brass
2. Bear Creek 125 moly truncated cone
3. Winchester small pistol primer
4. 3.2 gr Clays
5. 1.100 O.A.L. (any longer and the don't go bang)......What do you mean? OAL should have NO impact on the round firing. I run ALL my 9mm @ 1.150"
6. Crimp = .378

I measured a few bullets and they're .3575.
I slugged the barrel and it's .349/.355

Can somebody tell me what I'm doing wrong?

I suspect due to the short load you are "crimping" the cone of the bullet more than needed by having it that deep in the case.

Lee

Not so fast Ineel. I learned myself this past week that rounds too long will fail to ignite if the bullet touches the rifling at all. The slide does not go all the way forward sometimes causing a light strike issue. I shortened them up and cured the problem for now. I too have run roundnose ammo at 1.13-1.15 but the precision TC's had to be shortened to 1.11 to keep the shoulder off of the rifling and to run clean in my M&P.

That might be true.....but, he is loading the truncated cone Bear Creek 147gr which has a very long and narrow nose. I assure you that @ 1.150" they would be nowhere near the rifling.

This is an example of the exact bullet....I pulled one from a box I still have and it measure .356".


Lee

[lneel]

sandman, on Nov 17 2009, 07:50 PM, said:

lneel, on Nov 17 2009, 08:17 PM, said:

kmca, on Nov 17 2009, 05:45 PM, said:

I'm shooting an XD-9 Tactical in production and Sunday, I had a few tumbling bullets. Here are the specs:
1. Winchester brass
2. Bear Creek 125 moly truncated cone
3. Winchester small pistol primer
4. 3.2 gr Clays
5. 1.100 O.A.L. (any longer and the don't go bang)......What do you mean? OAL should have NO impact on the round firing. I run ALL my 9mm @ 1.150"
6. Crimp = .378

I measured a few bullets and they're .3575.
I slugged the barrel and it's .349/.355

Can somebody tell me what I'm doing wrong?

I suspect due to the short load you are "crimping" the cone BUTT of the bullet more than needed by having it that deep in the case.

Lee

Not so fast Ineel. I learned myself this past week that rounds too long will fail to ignite if the bullet touches the rifling at all. The slide does not go all the way forward sometimes causing a light strike issue. I shortened them up and cured the problem for now. I too have run roundnose ammo at 1.13-1.15 but the precision TC's had to be shortened to 1.11 to keep the shoulder off of the rifling and to run clean in my M&P.

also, I have no doubt you had to do that with the Precision 147gr as it has a much longer body that is ~.356" and then has a short sharp angle to a flat point. The BC is a much different bullet.

[Sarge]

lneel, on Nov 17 2009, 09:29 PM, said:

sandman, on Nov 17 2009, 07:50 PM, said:

lneel, on Nov 17 2009, 08:17 PM, said:

kmca, on Nov 17 2009, 05:45 PM, said:

I'm shooting an XD-9 Tactical in production and Sunday, I had a few tumbling bullets. Here are the specs:
1. Winchester brass
2. Bear Creek 125 moly truncated cone
3. Winchester small pistol primer
4. 3.2 gr Clays
5. 1.100 O.A.L. (any longer and the don't go bang)......What do you mean? OAL should have NO impact on the round firing. I run ALL my 9mm @ 1.150"
6. Crimp = .378

I measured a few bullets and they're .3575.
I slugged the barrel and it's .349/.355

Can somebody tell me what I'm doing wrong?

I suspect due to the short load you are "crimping" the cone BUTT of the bullet more than needed by having it that deep in the case.

Lee

Not so fast Ineel. I learned myself this past week that rounds too long will fail to ignite if the bullet touches the rifling at all. The slide does not go all the way forward sometimes causing a light strike issue. I shortened them up and cured the problem for now. I too have run roundnose ammo at 1.13-1.15 but the precision TC's had to be shortened to 1.11 to keep the shoulder off of the rifling and to run clean in my M&P.

also, I have no doubt you had to do that with the Precision 147gr as it has a much longer body that is ~.356" and then has a short sharp angle to a flat point. The BC is a much different bullet.

I understand that but OAL can and does have an impact on a round firing or not. That was my only point.

[kmca]

lneel, on Nov 17 2009, 06:24 PM, said:

sandman, on Nov 17 2009, 07:50 PM, said:

lneel, on Nov 17 2009, 08:17 PM, said:

kmca, on Nov 17 2009, 05:45 PM, said:

I'm shooting an XD-9 Tactical in production and Sunday, I had a few tumbling bullets. Here are the specs:
1. Winchester brass
2. Bear Creek 125 moly truncated cone
3. Winchester small pistol primer
4. 3.2 gr Clays
5. 1.100 O.A.L. (any longer and the don't go bang)......What do you mean? OAL should have NO impact on the round firing. I run ALL my 9mm @ 1.150"
6. Crimp = .378

I measured a few bullets and they're .3575.
I slugged the barrel and it's .349/.355

Can somebody tell me what I'm doing wrong?

I suspect due to the short load you are "crimping" the cone of the bullet more than needed by having it that deep in the case.

Lee

Not so fast Ineel. I learned myself this past week that rounds too long will fail to ignite if the bullet touches the rifling at all. The slide does not go all the way forward sometimes causing a light strike issue. I shortened them up and cured the problem for now. I too have run roundnose ammo at 1.13-1.15 but the precision TC's had to be shortened to 1.11 to keep the shoulder off of the rifling and to run clean in my M&P.

That might be true.....but, he is loading the truncated cone Bear Creek 147gr which has a very long and narrow nose. I assure you that @ 1.150" they would be nowhere near the rifling.

This is an example of the exact bullet....I pulled one from a box I still have and it measure .356".


Lee

Ummm, I'm using the 125gr LTC, if that makes a difference.

[Joe D]

I never could get Clays to work with heavy 9mm bullets. I switched to Solo 1000 and the tumbling went away. I load a 160 gr BC bullet in my wife's Glock. No tumbling issues.

[scheirere]

As some others have suggested, try a different powder. I had similar problems a couple years ago with masterblaster poly coated lead bullets. Tumbled wtih fast powders like clays and tightgroup. Switched to HS6 and they shot straight and true. BTW, same primers, crimp and OAL. Only thing I changed was the powder charge.

[kmca]

Thanks guys.
I guess I'm going to have to try some different powders. I hate working up loads

[Ern]

Thanks for your timely posts. The forum looks good.

I have just read this topic through an internet search and decided to register given this problem is my latest puzzle to solve since starting to reload 9mm 4 days ago ! (I reload mainly .32 S&W Long for centrefire matches, and .38 special, .357 magnum). I'm an ISSF shooter mainly.

My first reloads with 125gr LRN with diameter .356 using Win 231 at 4.1gr - tumbled.

I think the solution may be what Lee mentioned which is seating the projectiles too deep in the case, and overcrimping.

Last night I reloaded 150 more rounds with adjusting the seating die and crimp die (Lee Carbide die set), and they look much better with the projectiles seated proud and with a very light crimp. I compared my loads with some "factory bought" rounds.

So- for Kmca - unless you are certain you are not overcrimping or seating the projectile too deep in the cases, don't change powders yet. (although experimenting with powders is okay!)

I could post again after trying these new loads if you don't mind me imposing on this forum!

Ern

[kmca]

I'm sure that I'm not over crimping. I made sure to just remove the belling from the powder charge station. I also don't think I've seated the bullets too deep. The bullet exposed part of the bullet still measure .3565. I got some SR4756, Sr7625, TiteGroup, HS-6, Bullseye and AutoComp loaded and I'll try it out sometime next week.

This post has been edited by kmca: 19 November 2009 - 03:27 PM

[opcx6]

kmca, on Nov 17 2009, 06:45 PM, said:

I'm shooting an XD-9 Tactical in production and Sunday, I had a few tumbling bullets. Here are the specs:
1. Winchester brass
2. Bear Creek 125 moly truncated cone
3. Winchester small pistol primer
4. 3.2 gr Clays
5. 1.100 O.A.L. (any longer and the don't go bang)
6. Crimp = .378

I measured a few bullets and they're .3575.
I slugged the barrel and it's .349/.355

Can somebody tell me what I'm doing wrong?

Shooters using my 125gr swc .356 bullets in 9mm Glock and CZ pistols were having problems with bullets tumbling, I found that changing to Accurate 7 solved the problem. Very accurate and no tumbling. Should work for you.

[David Sinko]

It's becoming clear to me that the shape of the bullet has a lot to do with whether or not the cast bullet flies straight and true. I shot some 124 gr. LRN out of my 2" barreled S&W 940 at 100 yards. They produced nice, round holes. With the identical powder charge, the 122 gr. FP continued to be a bit problematic and occasionally produced some out of round holes, though for some reason not as bad as the first time. Then I had some 124 gr. pointed bullets (pulled from rounds I found at the range so I don't even know what they are) that hit completely sideways at only 5 yards.

From experience I have learned that excessive crimp applied to short plated bullets will destroy accuracy, but I don't see how this can apply to hard cast bullets. And I don't see how seating depth can cause the bullets to tumble. If I am missing something, I hope somebody can point it out to me.

Dave Sinko

[Patrick Sweeney]

The 9mm with lead or plated bullets is/can be very touchy on two subjects: crimp and powder.

Too much crimp, or too-fast of a powder, can cause tumbling. The crimp is a bit less random. Once you get the crimp right, most guns will respond. But if you have a barrel that doesn't like fast powders, no crimp change will make a difference.

The threshold seems to be right at WW-231. It, or faster powders, will cause tumbling. Slower won't.

I had a five-gallon bucket of 9mm 147 lead reloads, loaded with Bullseye, that my practice 9-pin gun loved. As long as that was my only 9mm, no problem. As soon as I started shooting other 9s, that load gave tumbling problems. Crimp didn't solve the problem, powder did.

[David Sinko]

The powder I am using is 231. I wanted a stout load so I settled on 4.5 grs., which is as high as I can go without having the cases stick in the cylinder when using quality brass. The bullets are seated out pretty far, actually as far as I can go without crimping into the lube groove. I consider RN a "competition only" bullet and had high hopes for the FN, which would be the better choice when shooting things other than paper and steel. For some reason the RN clearly behaves the best at all ranges. The FP also shoots way off to the right as the ranges increase, which is very annoying.

I just got a .356" sizing die and I'm going to play around with the 158 gr. SWC next. The only other suitable powder I have is Power Pistol, so I'll see how that works. I know it gives me some impressive velocity, but I never shot it beyond 25 yards and most of my work has been with jacketed bullets. Actually, I do have most of a pound of SR4756, but that is the miracle powder with .38 Special and cast bullets so I prefer to not "waste" it in the 9mm.

Dave Sinko