[ChristopherG]

I'm a LEO who believes in the value of competition shooting--both in its value for officer training and in its contribution to firearms technology development. I played a little at 3-gun a few years back, but have gotten into Law Enforcement since then. Now I'd like to do 3-gun with duty weapons, including my patrol rifle, which is what this thread is about.

I don't have a lot of AR15 experience apart from departmental training. My issued rifle is an Olympic Arms A2 M4gery. I can't complain about it because it didn't cost me a dime and has been highly reliable. Still, I'd rather shoot my own gun, and I know the department's guidelines will allow me to assemble or select a rifle that will be both a better 3-gun tool and, more importantly for me, a better patrol rifle (not that it matters, but the other 2 of my 3 guns are a Wilson Combat CQB and a Police 870 with Wilson mag extension, both duty weapons I'm happy with).

The parameters--a combination of departmental and personal requirements--are these:
Gotta be 5.56 x 45 NATO; duty load is 55 grs (departmental)
Gotta have a 16" tube (departmental)
Gotta fit in a rack that will take a free-float tube, but will not--I don't think--take a quadrail (departmental)
Gotta be an open-sight-only gun (departmental; I hope this will change to permit a RDS and would hope the gun would be able to stay with me through that change--hence an A3)
Gotta have a front night sight (personal)
Gotta be able to mount a good white light (personal)

I'd like to ask your suggestions, within these parameters, for the best, most capable gun for duty--and for the competition that helps me train for duty. I have some ideas, but would prefer to hear what you think you'd build or get. Thanks for sharing your experience and insights.

This post has been edited by ChristopherG: 16 November 2009 - 08:39 PM

[ChristopherG]

Perhaps I should add that I understand 3-gun rules and the game well enough to know I'm talking about a far-from-ideal competition gun here. But my thinking is that the best competition gun that fits within these parameters will be pretty close to the best patrol rifle I can select. If I'm thinking wrongly about that, please help me see why!

[Revopop]

OK, I'll give it a go. DPMS Tactical. It's a 16" barrel, rifle length gas, and rifle length handguards. You get more sight radius and a softer recoil impulse, and a lot more handguard to grab onto. You could put a ODCMP style free float tube under the handguards so it'll fit in the rack but still get the benefit of the free float tube. As for mounting the light, you could get a rail mounted to the front sight or a GG&G rail that bolts to the handguards, I'm sure there's other options too.

This post has been edited by Revopop: 16 November 2009 - 09:06 PM

[ChristopherG]

Interesting; I knew CMMG produced a 16 inch gun with rifle-length gas system, but are they as reliable as a mid-length? Do they have enough dwell time to work every time?

[Revopop]

You know, I just started a thread recently about this very question. Do a search for DPMS+Tactical and you should be able to find it. Bruce Piatt, who is a very successful 3 gunner and an active police officer, uses one on duty and trusts it completely. My conclusion was that while it theoretically isn't supposed to work, but the naysayers tend to be those who have no firsthand experience with them. By all accounts from actual users, the DPMS-built units run great.

[P.Pres]

You could go with the DPMS Tactical or something like a Rock River Dissspator and
just throw on a VTAC handguard and a small,short, piece of rail anywhere
you want on the handgaurd for the light.

Or for the best of both worlds, get any high quality M4 with a good trigger and mount
a high quality 16" barrel like a Lothar (Firebird) or JP with a cooley or Benny hill compensator
and a VTAC Handguard...

This post has been edited by P.Pres: 16 November 2009 - 09:41 PM

[latewatch]

Any good quality AR with a flat top upper would work fine. I would recommend, as others have, that you go with a mid length or rifle length gas system. Add a VTAC handguard and a decent trigger and you should be good to go.

[STInky]

I've been carrying the S&W M/P-15 VTAC model on duty for several months now. It is a very nice rifle. Comes with a nice JP trigger, JP/VTAC free float tube, VLTOR stock, Surefire flash hider and Surefire G2 light with VTAC mount, and also a VTAC sling.

I've also got a factory JP rifle, and this S&W VTAC model will do almost anything the JP will......at close range anyway
I've shot it out to 300 yards and it is a tack driver......any farther than that and I'm going to the JP rifle for sure !!!!

This post has been edited by STInky: 17 November 2009 - 05:43 AM

[jtischauser]

I have never shot either of these but their reputation is enough for me. If the funds are available as these aren't cheapos, I would go with the Viking Tactics/JP rifle as my #1 choice then the S&W/VTAC/JP as option #2.

This post has been edited by jtischauser: 17 November 2009 - 05:51 AM

[ChristopherG]

I'm a longtime wheelgunner and loyal to S&W; I'd probably already have bought one of the VTACs from them if the dang thing had a front sight! I like the VTAC handguard as a solution to achieving free floating and a long grip (I wear a 36" sleeve; when I hold a carbine-length forearm it feels like I'm tied in a little knot!).

I'm surprised there aren't more dissipator-style guns out there; maybe there just aren't many people who care about open sights enough to get real excited about sight radius. To me, though, it's essential. There are a lot of LOOONG, open spaces in the county I patrol, and I want the most range-capable package I can squeeze onto that little barrel!

I had been thinking I'd end up with a modified mid-length gun of some kind--with a VTAC tube over the mid-length gas port and a front sight clamped onto the end. But if a rifle-length system will work as well, I don't see any reason to go shorter. Bruce Piatt's choice is obviously one informed by competition! I'll keep my eye out for that DPMS tactical (though it's an A2 as far as I can see, and I would prefer an A3 for possible future adaptation to optics).

If I could get my hands on a CMMG 16" w/rifle-length gas, could the 1/7 twist be relied on to shoot 55 gr bullets accurately?

This post has been edited by ChristopherG: 17 November 2009 - 05:52 AM

[11.43mm]

If I could get my hands on a CMMG 16" w/rifle-length gas, could the 1/7 twist be relied on to shoot 55 gr bullets accurately?
trigger trigger trigger

[Revopop]

The DPMS Tactical is more commonly seen in A2 configuration for some reason, but flat-tops are available too.

[00bullitt]

My preference for an iron sighted patrol rifle would be 16" barreled midlength or intermediate length gas system with a rifle length freefloat tube(low profile gas block under handguard). For me....I would prefer a Noveske N4(they pin there low pro gas blocks to the barrel). I would use the VTAC/Troy Extreme 13" rail (awesome user configurable rail)for good controllability and sight radius. I would mount a Streamlight TLR1 or Surefire X300(pistol weapon lights) on the extreme end of the rail on the end of the handguard at the 12 o'clock position. I would then add a Daniel Defense fixed front sight butting up to the rear of the paddle switch of the light. This light position allows for ambidextrous activation and puts it in a universal position for shooting around barricades and over barricades. Its the best position I have found to date to mount a white light on the carbine. I like the LaRue rear BUIS and the LMT rear sight. If you want A2 style....use the LMT. If you like the A1 style and want a small sight that crosses over for a BUIS when RDS policy comes to fruition.....then LaRue is the ticket. Add a Trijicon brand tritium front sight post and your GTG.

I have a huge preference for the Blue Force Gear Vickers sling......Victory model. It is an adjustable 2 point. Add a good reliable trigger like the JP,stock of your liking and I think that will make you a damn fine patrol carbine that will double as an excellent competition carbine as well.

And yes......1/7 twists do fine with 55 grain bullets.

[jasmap]

If you want it built to your specs and you want a SOLID rifle I would contact either Jim Lambert of Firebird, JP Precision, or Marty K. of Accuracy Speaks and see if any of them have the time to do the work.

I am full-time LE also and I would trust any of these to build me a patrol/3-gun rifle.

This post has been edited by jasmap: 17 November 2009 - 08:29 AM

[Revopop]

You're relatively new to the forum, ChristopherG, and you may already know this, but I will say, in my experience, when 00bullitt speaks, you're wise to listen. I've gotten much good advice from him over the past year.

[Alaskapopo]

ChristopherG, on Nov 16 2009, 09:38 PM, said:

I'm a LEO who believes in the value of competition shooting--both in its value for officer training and in its contribution to firearms technology development. I played a little at 3-gun a few years back, but have gotten into Law Enforcement since then. Now I'd like to do 3-gun with duty weapons, including my patrol rifle, which is what this thread is about.

I don't have a lot of AR15 experience apart from departmental training. My issued rifle is an Olympic Arms A2 M4gery. I can't complain about it because it didn't cost me a dime and has been highly reliable. Still, I'd rather shoot my own gun, and I know the department's guidelines will allow me to assemble or select a rifle that will be both a better 3-gun tool and, more importantly for me, a better patrol rifle (not that it matters, but the other 2 of my 3 guns are a Wilson Combat CQB and a Police 870 with Wilson mag extension, both duty weapons I'm happy with).

The parameters--a combination of departmental and personal requirements--are these:
Gotta be 5.56 x 45 NATO; duty load is 55 grs (departmental)
Gotta have a 16" tube (departmental)
Gotta fit in a rack that will take a free-float tube, but will not--I don't think--take a quadrail (departmental)
Gotta be an open-sight-only gun (departmental; I hope this will change to permit a RDS and would hope the gun would be able to stay with me through that change--hence an A3)
Gotta have a front night sight (personal)
Gotta be able to mount a good white light (personal)

I'd like to ask your suggestions, within these parameters, for the best, most capable gun for duty--and for the competition that helps me train for duty. I have some ideas, but would prefer to hear what you think you'd build or get. Thanks for sharing your experience and insights.

I am a LEO as well and have worked for 10 years. I have also been a firearms instructor for 7 of those years. Stick with Colt, LMT, BCM, Noveske and comparable brands for duty. This is a bet your life on rifle not a just have fun at the range toy. So that means no DPMS or Oly. I am surprised your Department Oly's are working. Seen a lot of problems with Oly over the years and DPMS. I highly recommend the Noveske N4 light recce as meeting your needs to a T.

http://noveskeriflew...play.cgi?cat=47

My Noveske has been a great gun. I have used it in three gun and done well with it. Mine is a light carbine with a 14.5 inch barrel with a perm muzzle brake attached. For duty get a flash hider preferably the vortex. You may have to fire that stick inside. My Noveske has been a play gun. I use my Colt as a patrol rifle. Although I am thinking of SBR ing the N4 and getting a flash hider for it and a suppressor.
Pat





Let the chart guide your purchase decision.



This forum is excellent for advice on competition but terrible for advice on what is good in a real world gun. I urge you to look at www.m4carbine.net for advice in that regard. Competition and gun fighting are two different things. Its much better that you have a good gun for patrol that is ok for three gun vs a great three gun rifle that is unsuitable for patrol. One more thing. Competition is competition and training is training don't confuse the two.
Some other good threads to read. What ever you do down there stay safe and always watch their hands.
http://www.m4carbine...read.php?t=6642

http://www.m4carbine...read.php?t=7376

This post has been edited by kellyn: 18 November 2009 - 10:35 PM

[Revopop]

There's another thread going on how ridiculously awesome Noveske barrels are.

[esskay]

00bullitt, on Nov 17 2009, 07:12 AM, said:

I would use the VTAC/Troy Extreme 13" rail (awesome user configurable rail)for good controllability and sight radius.

Indeed, if you need a low profile handguard to fit in your rack, these VTAC/Troy Extreme tubes are even smaller diameter than the JP/VTAC tubes so many of us are running on our 3-gun rifles. Another bonus is that they are even lighter as well. On the downside, more $$!

[kellyn]

Alaskapopo, on Nov 17 2009, 07:35 PM, said:

This forum is excellent for advice on competition but terrible for advice on what is good in a real world gun. I urge you to look at www.m4carbine.net for advice in that regard. Competition and gun fighting are two different things. Its much better that you have a good gun for patrol that is ok for three gun vs a great three gun rifle that is unsuitable for patrol. One more thing. Competition is competition and training is training don't confuse the two.

Very true but it seems to me that the ideal 3 gun competition gun and the ideal patrol rifle are getting closer and closer and while they will not likely be the same, there sure is a lot of influence in both directions. And I am always amused as to how silly competition techniques (not tactics but shooting skill sets) sure seem to end up being dominant in the tactical world. A few years ago, many (and most) tactical guys held their ARs by the mag well. It has recently been discovered that you have more recoil control and drive the gun better by placing the support hand farther along the handguard. Imagine that.

As for the original question, I would get a JP VTAC.

[OPENB]

Man, I was scrolling to the bottom of this thread to find Kelly & Alaska said what I was going to say!

You have to evaluate your goals. If winning a match is the goal, get the gun that you feel will get you there. If winning the fight is, the game gun is not necessarily the same gun.
You will rarely take more than a 100 yd. shot with a patrol rifle, so a free float is not usually required. In 3 gun, 400-500 in not uncommon.

I am LEO. I use different tools for different jobs.

If a 16mid will fit in your patrol car lock, that would be your best compromise. Softer, let in dept. spec. Go flat top, and add irons, so you have the flexability to go to glass at a later time.

[ChristopherG]

Hey, thanks to everyone for your thoughtful replies. I'm looking over every one, studying all the recommended gear and considering all the suggestions about priorities and goals. Reading at m4carbine.net, too.

I think I'll end up with a 16" middy w/rifle length handguard; something that either is or looks a lot like the JP VTAC. Is freefloating necessary on a patrol rifle? In all likelihood, no. But if it's not going to hurt anything, and if it will increase the pleasure I take in shooting the gun, I reckon--why not?

I'm thinking at this point I'll end up with a JP sight base way out at the end of the barrel and a DD fixed front sight on it--if, that is, I can't twist the department's arm to change policy NOW and let me mount a RDS. That would make things a lot simpler.

Again, thanks for all your ideas and advice.

This post has been edited by ChristopherG: 19 November 2009 - 10:58 AM

[Revopop]

The free float tube may not be necessary for patrol rifle accuracy, but it you get one like the Troy or VTAC, you gain much more flexibilty in mounting your sights and your light.

[Alaskapopo]

kellyn, on Nov 18 2009, 11:45 PM, said:

Very true but it seems to me that the ideal 3 gun competition gun and the ideal patrol rifle are getting closer and closer and while they will not likely be the same, there sure is a lot of influence in both directions. And I am always amused as to how silly competition techniques (not tactics but shooting skill sets) sure seem to end up being dominant in the tactical world. A few years ago, many (and most) tactical guys held their ARs by the mag well. It has recently been discovered that you have more recoil control and drive the gun better by placing the support hand farther along the handguard. Imagine that.

As for the original question, I would get a JP VTAC.

I agree that competition shooters (yellow glasses) have added a lot to the tactical world. I see three gun as a way to beta test gear. However its just the first stop along the process. I also think its stupid for tactical shooters to ignore advice from professional competition shooters on how to shoot. I don't mean tactis. I mean advice on how to be faster and more accurate. Where I stop listening is when it comes to advice on gear. In leo we have a different set of needs. We need lights on our guns to identify the threat, We need our guns to be compact so they can be manuvered inside small trailer houses when serving high risk search warrants. We do better with optic like red dot sights because they work well in all lighting conditions and are very fast to use compared to iron sights even for the newest police officer recruit with minimal firearms training.

Three gun is a blast and its good for testing your skills. I would like to help bridge the gap between yellow glasses and dark sun glasses groups. So one day we may live in harmony.

[00bullitt]

To bridge the gap.....what if someone were to be a competitive shooter(a very good one) with tactical experience? There are many of us out there.

[Charles Bond]

00bullitt, on Nov 19 2009, 11:22 PM, said:

To bridge the gap.....what if someone were to be a competitive shooter(a very good one) with tactical experience? There are many of us out there.

Todd: No one yet has chimed in on all of his department requirements. Do you think they are out of date or maybe out of touch?