[Midas]

For the longest time I have been shooting with slightly bent arms at the elbows. Isosceles style of course. The last time I went out to shoot I tried just locking the arms out instead.
for what ever reason I am now shooting much better this way. I see so many of the top shooters bending their arms so slightly but it just does not work for me.

Does anyone else lock them out while shooting.
Maybe I am doing something else wrong and this makes up for it.

Jan

[Greg Bell]

Do a Google image search of Sevigny and you will see arms that appear to be pretty straight.

If you are comfortable and the sights track well for you, does it matter?

[Hi-Power Jack]

Midas, on Nov 16 2009, 02:02 AM, said:

For the longest time I have been shooting with slightly bent arms at the elbows. Isosceles style of course. The last time I went out to shoot I tried just locking the arms out instead.
for what ever reason I am now shooting much better this way.
Jan

Is it possible that you can see the front sight more clearly a few inches further
out? Or, have a more secure grip from the elbow locked position?

[Duane Thomas]

That's an illusion. When I interviewed Dave Sevigny for an article, he commented, "From the side it may look like my arms are straight, but if you look at it from above it looks like a big hug." Dave actually sent me a photo of his arm position, taken from above looking down, and he does indeed have such a radical arm bend that it looks like he's hugging someone. It's just that he does it with his elbows pointed toward the outside at the same level as his forearms and upper arms, so from the side it can look like straight arms.

[XRe]

Define "much better"... With a proper grip, you can only lock out the support arm, FWIW. With the left arm locked, the gun will tend to flip more, and also force you more onto your heels (recoil goes straight to the shoulder joint). I suspect you have some other problem going on....

[Duane Thomas]

Hey, if it works for you....it works. Whether it's the "right" way or not.

Having said that, there are good, logical reasons why a bent arms position should work better. If it's not, that points toward your particular arm position not working very well for you, not that there's anything innately wrong with the basic concept. For rapid fire, a slight arm bend works better because it allows the arms to flex slightly under recoil, like a shock absorber; it's like when the recoil energy hits the bend in your arms, it stops before it can ever reach the body. While a straight arms position may seem better for individual shots, or even double taps, the recoil energy with straight arms is still moving your body back-and-forth a bit, for even as few as two shots, degrading accuracy and the stability of your stance.

Bill Drills are great for showing the superiority of the bents arms position. Fire six quick shots with straight arms,you'll find the recoil energy, flowing straight back into your body high up, for shot after shot before your body can recover from the previous one (I call this effect "cumulative recoil"), actually levering your upper body back and throwing you off-balance.

[Duane Thomas]

When building our technique, so often we just adopt an arm position that looks like what we've seen someone else do in a photo, or we put the gun out there with our arms "bent" but without any real thought of what exactly that particular combination of bends is supposed to accomplish.

Instead, watch what the gun does in recoil. Does the front sight track up and to the left, or up and to the right? Does it come right back to the same spot every time? If it tracks up and to the right, try putting a bit more flex into the right arm, does that make it track more consistently? No? Try holding the arm with the same amount of bend but the elbow pointed at a different angle. How does the gun track now? Experiment with different combinations of bend to the left arm, the right arm, with the elbows pointed at different angles, and watch how that affects sight tracking. Eventually you'll find a combination that works right for you.

Alternately you can skip all that work and just watch the sights. Your subconscious mind can figure it out for you. Over time you'll notice the gun tracking more consistently, and not really be sure why, or what changes you've made to cause that. Who cares what you did, or why it works? Does it matter that you know - or is it only important that what you're doing now actually works?

[benos]

Duane Thomas, on Nov 16 2009, 06:32 AM, said:

When building our technique, so often we just adopt an arm position that looks like what we've seen someone else do in a photo, or we put the gun out there with our arms "bent" but without any real thought of what exactly that particular combination of bends is supposed to accomplish.

Instead, watch what the gun does in recoil. Does the front sight track up and to the left, or up and to the right? Does it come right back to the same spot every time? If it tracks up and to the right, try putting a bit more flex into the right arm, does that make it track more consistently? No? Try holding the arm with the same amount of bend but the elbow pointed at a different angle. How does the gun track now? Experiment with different combinations of bend to the left arm, the right arm, with the elbows pointed at different angles, and watch how that affects sight tracking. Eventually you'll find a combination that works right for you.

Alternately you can skip all that work and just watch the sights. Your subconscious mind can figure it out for you. Over time you'll notice the gun tracking more consistently, and not really be sure why, or what changes you've made to cause that. Who cares what you did, or why it works? Does it matter that you know - or is it only important that what you're doing now actually works?

Good stuff. Yes, let what you see guide you.
be

[sherpa]

XRe, on Nov 16 2009, 08:57 PM, said:

Define "much better"... With a proper grip, you can only lock out the support arm, FWIW. With the left arm locked, the gun will tend to flip more, and also force you more onto your heels (recoil goes straight to the shoulder joint). I suspect you have some other problem going on....

I just want to clarify. With the left (weak) arm locked, won't there even be better recoil control (less flip) since this allows the wrist to cant more and control the front strap w/c moves forward as the gun fires? Likewise, with this position where the left arm is more extended, I don't see how recoil will go back to the left shoulder since the force backward is at the pivot point below the beavertail where the right (strong) hand rests, and since the right arm is not fully stretched, it should be able to dampen the recoil back to the strong shoulder. Am I making sense?

My assumption with this arm position is that the left (weak) arm is not resting on the backstrap as well (like some grips advocate), but rather on the left grip panel only, like the Fist-Fire grip taught by DR Middlebrooks.

This post has been edited by sherpa: 16 November 2009 - 08:46 PM

[j1b]

Duane Thomas, on Nov 16 2009, 06:32 AM, said:

Your subconscious mind can figure it out for you.

Yep, that's where I'm at.

I said this in another post, I have generally been better off figuring out where I wanted to get to, not so much how to get there.

It allows you to not factor in "arms bent" or "arms locked"

Your brain knows what you want to accomplish. Let it do it's job.

J

[cyclone336]

I shot with both arms fully locked out all summer. Here is a video of me shooting my Production gun with 135 pf WWB:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=36CREjId6DE

As you can see from the 1/4 speed slo-mo, the recoil energy is transferred straight back into my shoulders. If you look really closely, you can even see my head move from the shockwave. At the end of the summer I tried some elbow bend during one session. Even given my limited live-fire experience, I believe that [FOR ME] the locked-arms technique limited my split times. As a disclaimer I will say that I also was using a rather upright stance, which probably limited my recoil recovery as well.

Good luck discovering a technique that works for you.

[Midas]

Thanks everyone for the great feedback. I realized that maybe that I am not completely locked out. That would hurt to much. But by no means are my elbows bent very much at all. I looked at my self in a mirror and saw that it may look straight but in reality there is a small bend. Maybe I was just bending to much.

I think my trigger finger movement and grip has a lot to do with it.

Anyhow thanks again.

Jan

[Duane Thomas]

Quote

I just want to clarify. With the left (weak) arm locked, won't there even be better recoil control (less flip) since this allows the wrist to cant more and control the front strap w/c moves forward as the gun fires? Likewise, with this position where the left arm is more extended, I don't see how recoil will go back to the left shoulder since the force backward is at the pivot point below the beavertail where the right (strong) hand rests, and since the right arm is not fully stretched, it should be able to dampen the recoil back to the strong shoulder. Am I making sense?

My assumption with this arm position is that the left (weak) arm is not resting on the backstrap as well (like some grips advocate), but rather on the left grip panel only, like the Fist-Fire grip taught by DR Middlebrooks.

No offense - honest - but you are seriously overthinking this matter. Not that we all haven't, at one point or another.

[Graham Smith]

There are many different variations of bent and straight arms. How you hold your shoulders, how you grip the gun, how you position your elbows, even how you are put together all effect this.

I've shot with a GM who locks his elbows - it works for him. I tried the same thing and it was terrible.

Try as many different variations as you can and shoot lots of drills in each position. Also, don't forget that you only spend part of the time on a COF in an ideal position, so make sure you can adapt your position to off-angle and off-axis shooting.

[benos]

Bend over from the waist so your back is parallel with the ground, and let your arms hang down, relaxed. The slight bend in your arms is usually a pretty good place to shoot from. Or at least a good place to start your experimentation from.
be

[j1b]

Duane Thomas, on Nov 17 2009, 03:00 AM, said:

Quote

I just want to clarify. With the left (weak) arm locked, won't there even be better recoil control (less flip) since this allows the wrist to cant more and control the front strap w/c moves forward as the gun fires? Likewise, with this position where the left arm is more extended, I don't see how recoil will go back to the left shoulder since the force backward is at the pivot point below the beavertail where the right (strong) hand rests, and since the right arm is not fully stretched, it should be able to dampen the recoil back to the strong shoulder. Am I making sense?

My assumption with this arm position is that the left (weak) arm is not resting on the backstrap as well (like some grips advocate), but rather on the left grip panel only, like the Fist-Fire grip taught by DR Middlebrooks.

No offense - honest - but you are seriously overthinking this matter. Not that we all haven't, at one point or another.

I have to agree on both points. You likely are overthinking this, and we all have (or are) doing it.

I remember once a LONG time ago I happened to catch a picture of myself shooting a stage. At the time, I was shooting pretty decent. Basically that's double speak for I was getting better and I was pleased with my improvement. Ironically when I saw the picture of myself, I was a little put off. I didn't "look" like how I thought I should. My elbows were in fact bent a lot more than I would have thought. Now, to plea the case here, I was shooting around a barricade but regardless I again didn't "look" how I thought I should look.

I remember almost on purpose disregarding my thoughts on the photo. Things were going well, and I had to believe that if what I was doing was producing the results I desired, then in fact I shouldn't change that so I could look better.

I'm not necessarily contending you're in this boat. I don't believe you asked the question in order to insure you "looked the part." My only point is that if something is working, then go with it. Regardless of what that means. When it's time to change, when you need a new way of doing things in order to continue to improve, you'll adapt in order to achieve those goals.


Jack

[XRe]

sherpa, on Nov 16 2009, 09:45 PM, said:

I just want to clarify. With the left (weak) arm locked, won't there even be better recoil control (less flip) since this allows the wrist to cant more and control the front strap w/c moves forward as the gun fires? Likewise, with this position where the left arm is more extended, I don't see how recoil will go back to the left shoulder since the force backward is at the pivot point below the beavertail where the right (strong) hand rests, and since the right arm is not fully stretched, it should be able to dampen the recoil back to the strong shoulder. Am I making sense?

I know what you're thinking, but physics and anatomy don't work that way. Joints at bone lock (ie, fully extended, or fully locked) won't bend. Force applied against them is then transferred to the next joint up the limb. If you want to feel that, try jumping up and down on your heels with your knees locked.

Also, with the left wrist canted as fully forward as possible, you also tend to lose grip strength.

Quote

My assumption with this arm position is that the left (weak) arm is not resting on the backstrap as well (like some grips advocate), but rather on the left grip panel only, like the Fist-Fire grip taught by DR Middlebrooks.

No, it's not on the backstrap. That's where the strong hand goes. However, unless you are gripping so lightly with the left hand that the gun is jumping out of it when you shoot, the recoil of the gun is carrying the left and hand right hands together in whichever direction it goes. If the left hand can't move rearward (because the left elbow is locked out), neither can the right hand.

In addition to what cyclone says above, transmission of recoil to the shoulders will also tend to enhance any flinch you might have... there's a physiological response to that impact in the shoulders that tends to make you blink.

The best way to manage recoil is to use muscles to do it, not bones (that does not mean brute force....). With joints locked - any joint in the chain - you're using bones, not muscles.

I could clearly demonstrate this to you in about 1.5 minutes in person...

[XRe]

j1b, on Nov 17 2009, 09:36 PM, said:

Ironically when I saw the picture of myself, I was a little put off. I didn't "look" like how I thought I should.

I still feel that way about a lot of things... But my grip/stance look pretty good to me...

[Duane Thomas]

Jack,

I recently had the exact same experience. I was looking at photos taken of me shooting, and I thought, "Damn....I'm bending those arms a lot more than I thought." But really, who cares?

[Bill Nesbitt]

Duane Thomas, on Nov 16 2009, 08:32 AM, said:

Alternately you can skip all that work and just watch the sights. Your subconscious mind can figure it out for you. Over time you'll notice the gun tracking more consistently, and not really be sure why, or what changes you've made to cause that. Who cares what you did, or why it works? Does it matter that you know - or is it only important that what you're doing now actually works?

I like this statement. It deserves to be someplace more important than buried in a thread about elbows.

[Duane Thomas]

Thanks, Bill.

[Dwight Stearns]

First of let me say that I have never shot freestyle with straight arms. My right arm was injured when i was 18 and won't fully straighten. So I have no first hand experiance with the straight arm shooting stance.

I have found though that when I intentionally change a technique, many times I initially start shooting better. If the technique was surperior, my improvement continues past the honeymoon period. If not I realize it was a mistake and time for a divorce. It seems that when a new technique is tried, concentration is directed toward that technique and the subconscious mind takes over more of the things like sight picture and trigger control. You know, the trivial stuff.

I believe this is similar to changing front sight color and suddenly shooting better. It changes ones concentration.

Dwight

This post has been edited by Dwight Stearns: 18 November 2009 - 11:03 AM

[Duane Thomas]

Brian has commented that he and Robbie used to find, whenever their shooting started going flat, if they changed anything in their technique, they immediately began shooting much better - and it didn't really matter what the change was - for exactly the reason you mention. They called this "the trick of the day".

[benos]

Dwight Stearns, on Nov 18 2009, 11:03 AM, said:

First of let me say that I have never shot freestyle with straight arms. My right arm was injured when i was 18 and won't fully straighten. So I have no first hand experiance with the straight arm shooting stance.

I have found though that when I intentionally change a technique, many times I initially start shooting better. If the technique was surperior, my improvement continues past the honeymoon period. If not I realize it was a mistake and time for a divorce. It seems that when a new technique is tried, concentration is directed toward that technique and the subconscious mind takes over more of the things like sight picture and trigger control. You know, the trivial stuff.

I believe this is similar to changing front sight color and suddenly shooting better. It changes ones concentration.

Dwight

Exactly. The Trick of the Day sometimes lasts a week or three... But in the end it comes down to learning what to pay attention to, and when.
be

[j1b]

benos, on Nov 18 2009, 05:12 PM, said:

The Trick of the Day sometimes lasts a week or three... But in the end it comes down to learning what to pay attention to, and when.
be

That really does capture it.

One of the most frustrating components of the "trick of the day" is that in a good many cases it is a temporary fix for a root cause problem.

There was a distinct time in my shooting when nothing was going right. For months on end I simply couldn't get things right on nearly anything. I was focused on results and not sights. I was busy thinking I was better than what I really was. I was in fact very focused on nearly everything but the shooting. During those good number of months I was desperate to fix things so I'd try this, and I'd try that. And often times this or that would work for a few weeks. And then the same old issues would pop up again. I can remember the self talk "Damn it, I'm doing this, I'm doing what worked last week! Why the bleepedie bleep bleep isn't it working now???" And I'd force the issue. I'd over compensate, over focus on the new "trick" and that small up tick in performance I saw for a few weeks would be more than compensated for in the disastrous fall. I didn't get back to the same bad. I got worse.

Switching to limited, at that time, was my "trick" because for the first time I stopped thinking about all other things. I knew I had to focus on the shooting. And performance didn't matter as much because I simply accounted for the fact that this was all new and it would take some time to get where I needed to. And so I fell back on the best, the oldest, and the most long lasting trick of the day in existence . . . I fell back on focusing on the shooting. It was indeed a paradigm shift for me at the time.

One thing I learned in all of this is something Brian talks about in his book. It's this whole idea of trying. I don't have the book in front of me, so this is a bit from memory, but I remember him writing that if you go out and do something and it works that is pretty great. One challenge in that is when you go back the next time, how do you replicate what you did? Because when you go back you can do all these things you did the first time, but there is one element that inherently has changed. Last time you weren't "trying" to do those things. This time you are.

Paying attention to what needs to be paid attention to is at times extremely hard. We're all very human, and we all are fully capable of getting in our own way. These couple revelations, a good number taught to me by our host, were lessons in learning that you have to pay attention. You don't have to try to pay attention. You simply have to pay attention. Nothing matters as much as seeing what you need to see to execute what needs to be done. And often times it doesn't matter what was done (bent elbows, etc.) it only matters that the intended result and the actual result are the same.

Jack

This post has been edited by benos: 19 November 2009 - 12:31 PM