[benos]

I hijacked this from the "Just finished With Winning in Mind" thread. I thought we could get something going on it here.
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jmorris, on Nov 10 2009, 02:20 PM, said:

I think the best thing I obtained from the book followed with practice is "presents" in the stage, so if anything unexpected takes place the "wheels don’t fall off".

I guess it's like knowing if you drop an egg you should try and catch it but if you drop an anvil you need to move your toes. You don't have time to "think" about it you just do it instinctively.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I prefer the word instinctively over subconsciously to describe the "zone realm" of doing anything.

I googled "subconscious, and the words on wikipedia pretty much summed up how I feel about the use of the word subconscious.

"Instinctive" is an interesting word to me, because some things we naturally do instinctively - like move away from a precipice for example - but many things we don't. So in a particular field, we have to train the things we don't instinctively until they become instinctive responses.

A couple shooting examples. Immediately reach for a new mag if you fumble one during a mag change. Wait until you know you will hit the target before you pull the trigger.
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[j1b]

I believe the mind in general is desperately under tapped.

And I believe we see evidence of that everyday. I like the Egg vs Anvil discussion because it illustrates that the brain left alone can accomplish a hell of a lot more than what we can get ourselves to do through intent.

Defining it doesn't mean as much to me as understanding how to "tap" into it.

At times I feel I am able to simply get out of my own way. I've done it a couple of times playing golf, where I really thought more about what I wanted to accomplish versus figuring out how I was going to accomplish it. I remember once I was sitting 100 yards out and I remember thinking that the pin was in the middle of the green and ultimately I wanted a very high ball that landed and stopped. I am no swing expert so figuring out how to hit a "high" shot versus a "normal" trajectory was beyond me. And I have no real understanding on how to put true spin on a ball. But I just felt that was what I needed to do - and I guess I just stood up to the ball and figured my brain knew what the desired outcome was, it is all wired up to my body - so I just said I'll swing the club and my brain will do what it needs to hit the shot. And I did. One of the most rewarding shots I ever made.

Even shooting skeet on Sunday on the first couple stations I really just kind of let things roll. Paid attention but didn't "try" to hit the birds. On stations one and two (and for that matter 7 and 8) I really just felt that regardless of what I thought, or did, or felt, I knew how to hit those birds. For the most part that worked out, the lone exception being my last round where I took it all for granted, got lazy, and took for granted that I would hit the target. The three previous rounds it wasn't a given, it was just a "I know how." The last round I took it as a given, and missed the high bird on the pair as a result.

I don't know if any of that is relevant, but it is what I thought of when first reading your post.

Jack

[benos]

j1b, on Nov 10 2009, 05:15 PM, said:

... where I really thought more about what I wanted to accomplish versus figuring out how I was going to accomplish it.
Jack

That's a great sentence. Thanks for it all Jack.
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[Field]

i like to say 'clutch'

[Duane Thomas]

I like to say, "Clutch," too. It's a really cool word. Just out of curiosity, exactly why do you like to say, "Clutch"?

[Ramas]

Do not know why I remembered some lesson given from Eric Grauffel from his courses reading this post.
He asked: what would you do if something happens bad during shooting stage? Many of us would speed up our shooting instinctively to catch the time, doing more damage to stage points which we would find calculating our points. He suggested to train those situations to change our instinct and focus only on points in those situations. To ease things up and convince ourselves that this is the right concept to focus on points by doing simple calculations. Common sence can change your instincts sometimes.

[Graham Smith]

benos, on Nov 10 2009, 06:58 PM, said:

"Instinctive" is an interesting word to me, because some things we naturally do instinctively - like move away from a precipice for example - but many things we don't. So in a particular field, we have to train the things we don't instinctively until they become instinctive responses.

Here's the problem I have with the word "instinctive". If someone throws a ball at you, your instinctive response will be to move out of the way or use your hands to fend it off. But with training, you can learn to catch the ball. With more training you can learn what to do with the ball after you catch it.

We learn to do things, particularly physical things, by repetition. We repeat the thing over and over again until the action becomes automatic. Your brain flashes on the ball and your hands move into position to catch the ball. This is where the whole "muscle memory" debate comes in. What it really comes down to is a conditioned response - a given stimulus produces a given response.

Like baseball, "action" shooting requires that you perform a series of actions in rapid succession. The less you have to think about those actions and the more you can do them automatically, the faster you will be. Learning to see a target and draw and engage that target and hit it where you want to is a learned behavior which requires a lot of practice and it involves executing at least three separate actions - draw the gun, engage the target, shoot the gun. If you don't practice all three actions until you can do them without thinking, you will not be able to execute the combined action smoothly.

<off soapbox>

This post has been edited by Graham Smith: 11 November 2009 - 02:23 PM

[wide45]

Field, on Nov 10 2009, 11:25 PM, said:

i like to say 'clutch'

Duane Thomas, on Nov 10 2009, 11:53 PM, said:

I like to say, "Clutch," too. It's a really cool word. Just out of curiosity, exactly why do you like to say, "Clutch"?

I bet that I say "Clutch" more often than both of you put together.

This post has been edited by wide45: 11 November 2009 - 02:34 PM

[Early IPSC'er]

Graham Smith, on Nov 11 2009, 03:21 PM, said:

Here's the problem I have with the word "instinctive"... But with training, you can learn... With more training you can learn what to do...We learn to do things, particularly physical things, by repetition. We repeat the thing over and over again until the action becomes automatic...What it really comes down to is a conditioned response - a given stimulus produces a given response...The less you have to think about those actions and the more you can do them automatically, the faster you will be...a learned behavior which requires a lot of practice and it involves executing ...If you don't practice...you will not be able to execute the combined action smoothly.

<off soapbox>

Graham, I think that you would like a book that I just started reading, The Talent Code by Daniel Coyle. Gil Ash, the shotgun coach who is very much into the mental game, said that it was the best book that he's ever read on skill development and how we learn a skill vs. develop latent talent. I wish that I could fill in the details but I just got the book yesterday.

[Duane Thomas]

Just put it on hold at the library. Thanks.

[Aloha Robert]

benos, on Nov 10 2009, 01:58 PM, said:

I googled "subconscious, and the words on wikipedia pretty much summed up how I feel about the use of the word subconscious.

I like Brian's Wikipedia reference and especially the snippet from it

"references to the 'subconscious' as an agency may credit it with various abilities and powers that exceed those possessed by consciousness: the 'subconscious' may apparently remember, perceive and determine things beyond the reach or control of the conscious mind."

I think the concept of the subconscious being a separate "agent" from the conscious is very useful in all sports but really in IPSC.
Assign some tasks to the conscious agent and offload as much to the subconscious as possible. The subconscious is much faster in all sports than the conscious.

That's why if you are good enough at any sports skill, you can do it faster if you don’t "think" about it (read, use the slower conscious mind).

It’s tricky concept to train separate “agent” that you cannot directly communicate with but Brian’s concept of “attention” is one of best ways I know to tame the beast. Also pictures and visualizing seem to indirectly communicate with this agent as well.

Another concept that ties well into this is that the subconscious agent can be “hijacked” by other stuff like emotions, match stress, weather, difficult memory stages, physical condition, diet and a zillion other factors.

To a certain degree the “user” or conscious mind can resist these subconscious “hijackers” by force of will (will power) which is paradoxically a conscious effort (or is it really only conscious?)

[Sam]

I just woke up from a long nap. If you had dropped either an egg or an anvil on my foot, I would not have moved until after it hit, because I was "unconscious".

The next level up from unconscious is "thinking". I couldn't make the shot because I was "thinking" about doing it. (The thinking mind is where the ego lives and like the religious leaders of Galileo's day, the ego thinks that it is the center of the universe.)

Awakening further from thinking is "awareness" or "presence". My thinking mind cannot calculate any limits to the depth and breadth of my "presence". So, it recoils in fear, because it senses the edge of a great abyss. Then, tries it's best to deny it's existence.

Everyone reading this tread has had several glimpses of real awareness and wonders with the "thinking" mind how to get back there.






Thinking cannot lead the way.

[benos]

Sam, on Nov 13 2009, 03:47 PM, said:

Everyone reading this tread has had several glimpses of real awareness and wonders with the "thinking" mind how to get back there.

Right. That's the eternal trap. Awareness must be allowed.

Sam, on Nov 13 2009, 03:47 PM, said:

Thinking cannot lead the way.

No, but it's good for planning what to take with you on a trip.

Knowing when it's best to think and when it's best not to is a good thing to know and do.
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This post has been edited by benos: 16 November 2009 - 04:23 PM
Reason for edit: added "and do."

[TM262]

I was thinking about this the other day. Who is the better shooter? Is it the one that sees the sights and breaks the shot or is it the one who breaks the shot when he/ she knows (instinctively) where the bullet will land?

[Sam]

TM262, I can't say who would be the better shooter. But, on my better day, I would just see and know.

Brian, I am really coming to understand that fact. That it must be allowed rather than conjured up from somewhere. And it wants to be allowed. It really does, if I can just get the thinking out of the way.

Thinking is great in a walk through..... and also in the grocery store.

[j1b]

Sam, on Nov 13 2009, 10:42 PM, said:

Brian, I am really coming to understand that fact. That it must be allowed rather than conjured up from somewhere.

This made me think of a movie line.

The young lady ask "what is happening"

And the man says "He's beginning to believe"

The movie was The Matrix. While I understand it was just a movie it's interesting to me that one idea behind the movie was the Neo had to get out of his own way, throw all conventional and known wisdoms out the door, and simply allow himself to know what the possibilities could be.

[Sam]

That's a cool thought, Jack. Even if it is just a movie.

USPSA stages are often presented to us as problems to be solved. My mind loves to solve problems and work out puzzles. That is why it is hard to let the zone manifest.

In problem solving mode, the thinking mind is running things. I like to analyze the stage with thought, then put the thinking away. That's the trick for me. And I don't always pull it off.

But without competitive shooting, I doubt that I would have ever figured out that I can switch between thinking and being.

[benos]

j1b, on Nov 14 2009, 06:49 AM, said:

Sam, on Nov 13 2009, 10:42 PM, said:

Brian, I am really coming to understand that fact. That it must be allowed rather than conjured up from somewhere.

This made me think of a movie line.

The young lady ask "what is happening"

And the man says "He's beginning to believe"

The movie was The Matrix. While I understand it was just a movie it's interesting to me that one idea behind the movie was the Neo had to get out of his own way, throw all conventional and known wisdoms out the door, and simply allow himself to know what the possibilities could be.

That movie had a lot of good lines in it.
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