[silvery37]

I am reloading using a dillon press and lee dies. I have the dies set up as the instructions say. After I load a round I am able to push a bullet into the case with my fingers. The only way I can prevent this is to set the factory crimp die as low as it will go. I have reloaded thousands of rounds and am only having this problem now that I am using nickel plated speer brass. To me it seems like the resizing die is not sizing the brass back down small enough. I do not see any way to make the die size the brass smaller. I am using montana gold bullets.

[SA Friday]

Go to a U resizing die, go to a regular crimp die, chuck the Lee FCD in the trash.

[silvery37]

What is a U resizing die?

[GentlemanJim]

Its a slightly undersize die
I use it...and it works well
Jim

[SA Friday]

silvery37, on Nov 10 2009, 05:23 PM, said:

What is a U resizing die?

http://egw-guns.com/...a002fa5192f0337

[robertbank]

You might want to measure the MG bullets as well to see if they are undersize. You don't want to set yuor crimp die to low or you will end up expanding the case not adding more crimp. All you shuold have to do is remove any belling you applied earlier.

Take Care

Bob

[al503]

Unless there is something wrong with your sizing die, you don't have to replace it with an undersize die. Will it hurt you? No. Is it absolutely necessary? No.

Its counter intuitive but the lack of case tension is probably due to overcrimping the bullet. First of all, keep the flare of the case mouth to a minimum. Make sure that you are only flaring it enough to place the bullet on top without it toppling over. Seat the bullet and then take it out of the press before crimping. See if you can push the bullet in. You shouldn't be able to. Back out the crimp die all the way. Put the bullet back in the press and see if it actually makes contact with the flared case lip in the crimp station. Slowly turn down the crimp die until it starts to reform the lips. At the point where the case lip is completely flush with the bullet, you're done. There will probably be the slightest shiny ring around the lip and nothing more. Take your calipers and measure the case diameter at the very bottom of the seated bullet. You'll be able to see this as 9mm is a tapered case and you'll see it bulge slightly. Then measure the diameter at the lip of the bullet. They should be the same or within .001"

Hope I've made sense.

Take the round out of the machine and try to push the bullet in. It shouldn't (unless your OAL is way too long.)

[SingleStacker45]

al503, on Nov 10 2009, 05:34 PM, said:

Unless there is something wrong with your sizing die, you don't have to replace it with an undersize die. Will it hurt you? No. Is it absolutely necessary? No.

Its counter intuitive but the lack of case tension is probably due to overcrimping the bullet. First of all, keep the flare of the case mouth to a minimum. Make sure that you are only flaring it enough to place the bullet on top without it toppling over. Seat the bullet and then take it out of the press before crimping. See if you can push the bullet in. You shouldn't be able to. Back out the crimp die all the way. Put the bullet back in the press and see if it actually makes contact with the flared case lip in the crimp station. Slowly turn down the crimp die until it starts to reform the lips. At the point where the case lip is completely flush with the bullet, you're done. There will probably be the slightest shiny ring around the lip and nothing more. Take your calipers and measure the case diameter at the very bottom of the seated bullet. You'll be able to see this as 9mm is a tapered case and you'll see it bulge slightly. Then measure the diameter at the lip of the bullet. They should be the same or within .001"

Hope I've made sense.

Take the round out of the machine and try to push the bullet in. It shouldn't (unless your OAL is way too long.)

+1
this is almost always the case. more crimp does not equal more bullet tension but just the opposite. your crimp die is actually crushing the case down causing it to expand and loose bullet tension. Check the tension before the crimp stage and see if we are right.

Mule

[Sarge]

Are all of your loaded rounds turning out this way? I have found certain brass to be so thin that it will not hold a bullet in place without changing all of my die settings. L/Y marked brass is what I was having problems with. But my guess is that the other replies are probably pretty accurate. You just need to tweak your press setup a little. Let us know if you need more help.

[silvery37]

Thanks for the replies. If I dont use the crimp at I can push the bullet into the case. I have the flare of the case mouth set to a minimum. I really cant figure it out. I have reloaded nearly 10,000 9mm and this is the first problem I have had.

When I dont use the crimp die at all I can push the bullet in with my fingers. I measured the brass thickness, the top quarter of the brass closest to the mouth is measuring around .0105. I am having this problem with several different kinds of brass. The only brass that doesnt cause a problem is my old brass.

This post has been edited by silvery37: 10 November 2009 - 07:15 PM

[G-ManBart]

And you're really, really, really sure the shell plate is lightly touching the resizing die when the lever is at the end of it's throw?

[silvery37]

Yes, the resizing die is touching.

I took some measurements. Most of the brass I havent had problems with measures around .0115 thick at the neck. The new brass is around .0105 thick at the neck, although I do have some brass that doesnt cause me problems that is this same thickness. When I measure a little deeper into the case it seems like there is a bigger difference. The new brass is around .010-.011. Old brass is .0115-.012.

Could someone check their brass for me. After I resize these are the outside diameters that I get.
At the neck .375
Lowest point that brass has been resized, (lowest point towards the base that the die left a mark) .386
Midpoint between neck and low spot of resizing .380

It appears that the brass I am having problems with is consistently thinner. The die should still size this brass small enough to hold a bullet. Is it possible my die is worn out? If someone can compare the diameter of a sized case with what I posted above I should be able to tell.

Based on a resized diameter of .375 at the neck and a total brass thickness of .022 I am only getting .001 of neck tension on a seated bullet.

[Sarge]

After further review. Are you getting resistance when you size the brass? I can't see the die being wore out but I guess it's possible. The carbide ring in the die might be cracked? Or missing altogether. Both unlikely but possible. A bullet will slip right into an unsized case like you are describing. It will also slip into a case with too thin of a wall. As for the brass walls being thin, the die will compress the brass to an outside diameter, if the case wall is too thin your inside diameter will still be loose. I know you have loaded a lot of 9mm but are you sure about all of your components? What brand is the new brass you mentioned? Can you find some of your older brass or go pick up some range brass and see if it sizes and loads properly? I get right around .376 at the neck of my loaded rounds. Did you switch bullets? Measure them?

Keep us posted.

[Sherwyn]

SA Friday, on Nov 10 2009, 05:17 PM, said:

Go to a U resizing die, go to a regular crimp die, chuck the Lee FCD in the trash.

+1 here really does not say it strong enough. I quit loading mixed 9mm brass before I changed to the undersize die. There is just some brass that is thin enough to not get resize properly.
I tried the factory crimp die...it has the opposite issue...if the brass is thicker, then if you check you will find you are actually resize the bullet as well.

Sherwyn

[Graham Smith]

Perhaps I'm the exception here, but I've never found a need for a 'U' die for 9mm. It doesn't resize the mouth of the case any differently, just sizes a bit further down the case which can help a bit if you are having problems with loaded rounds chambering.

When I first started loading 9mm on a Lee Pro, I had a similar problem but found that a little bit less bell and a little more "crimp" fixed the problem. The Lee FCD does not actually crimp, it just removes the remaining bell, and it doesn't take much. But it's fairly easy to see if it's not set right because if you turn two cartridges end to end and put one on top of the other, you will clearly see if the mouth of the case has been returned to proper shape. You can also use your calipers to measure the case.

As to setting up a Dillon press, I found that I had to set up the dies somewhat differently than I did on my Lee Pro and Loadmaster. What I found most helpful was the video Brian did on Competition Reloading. He spent some time going over the setup of dies and I found his instructions and tips to be most useful.

[98sr20ve]

Basic trouble shooting, With out spending a dime.

1) Take your sizing die and measure the carbide ring (take out the primer punch to measure right).
2) Size a case and measure the inside and outside of the case.
3) Measure your bullets.

You will find that most sizing dies are .010 - .008 under the max sammi spec in your reloading manual.
You will find that when you resize a case it will spring back .002
So you should have .006 difference between you bullet and case.

Then you can run a cartridge through the press and see what is actually happening in each stage. It will tell you why you have a problem.

This post has been edited by 98sr20ve: 11 November 2009 - 08:02 AM

[silvery37]

Carbide ring is intact. From what I can tell the sizer just isnt sizing the brass small enough. The brass I am having problems with is once fired speer and federal.

problem brass:
od after resizing .376
id after resizing .3545

I am thinking about just trying some new dies. I am looking at dillon or redding. Is one better?

[silvery37]

I see that the undersize die is only .001 under. Would this be enough to fix my problem?

This post has been edited by silvery37: 11 November 2009 - 09:28 AM

[silvery37]

I looked in the manual and it shows a loaded round as having an OD of .380. With a .355 bullet this leaves .025 brass thickness or .0125 thickness per wall. All my brass is under this.

So, it looks like my diagnosis is that my brass is to thin. What is weird is that this is happening with two different kinds of brass (Speer and Federal). Does anybody have a solution for sizing thin walled brass?

[SA Friday]

silvery37, on Nov 11 2009, 10:21 AM, said:

I see that the undersize die is only .001 under. Would this be enough to fix my problem?

Yes. It also resizes further down on the case.

If you want to be able to reload any brass, have consistant rounds, and not have to worry about this anymore, this is the way to go.

I reload a lot. I've reloaded 15k to 30k 9mm for the last five years. 9mm minor is a very forgiving load on brass. I have some brass loaded with a U die and the other recommendations I made well over a dozen times and the brass is still good to go.

I use a U die for 9mm, 40 cal, and 45 ACP. You really can't go wrong with this set-up. Every instance I've had with bullet set-back issues (and the occasional feeding issues) in any of these three calibers disappeared after I started using EGW U resizing dies.

Can you reload without it? Yep, you sure can. Can you reload more trouble free and save a ton of time fighting your set-up for $30 bucks? Yep. Well worth the $30.

[G-ManBart]

Graham Smith, on Nov 11 2009, 08:47 AM, said:

Perhaps I'm the exception here, but I've never found a need for a 'U' die for 9mm. It doesn't resize the mouth of the case any differently, just sizes a bit further down the case which can help a bit if you are having problems with loaded rounds chambering.

Untrue. The U-die is .001 smaller, so it does resize the case mouth differently/more. R,

[silvery37]

I just ordered the die so hopefully it will fix my problems

[98sr20ve]

G-ManBart, on Nov 11 2009, 10:24 AM, said:

Graham Smith, on Nov 11 2009, 08:47 AM, said:

Perhaps I'm the exception here, but I've never found a need for a 'U' die for 9mm. It doesn't resize the mouth of the case any differently, just sizes a bit further down the case which can help a bit if you are having problems with loaded rounds chambering.

Untrue. The U-die is .001 smaller, so it does resize the case mouth differently/more. R,

Plus, the LFCD is about .005 larger then a standard sizing die. Basically, on a straight wall case this is how sizing works (give or take a little). I will use a 10mm as the example

O.D. of 10mm is .425
Sizing die ring is .415
Sized brass springs back to .418
FCD sizing ring is sized at .422, so brass sizes back to .425 with typical brass spring back.

9mm is a little different as it's a tapered case. Sizing ring for the FCD is actually "about (I don't have my notes)" .006 smaller the the SAMMI spec. This is still larger then the SAMMI spec for the bullet+case portion of the 9mm. BUT, the FCD is still sized larger then the standard Lee sizing die for the 9mm. So, if the sizing die is setup right the FCD will not resize a case because it's larger then the same die Lee makes for the 9mm. The FCD also has the same taper/entrance as the standard lee sizing die as well. Basically, if your sizing die works in 9mm the only thing the FCD will do is size a bullet that is seated a little off. In .40 S&W/10mm it will size any case that is .422 or larger. Notice this is .003 smaller then SAMMI spec for that case. The FCD has to be sized smaller then SAMMI spec because brass typically springs back .003. I have taken all my FCD's off my press. All they do is cover up mistakes in die setup or other problems. For example, I just switched to a Hornady In Line Seating Die. It's causing me a ton of problems BUT if I had a FCD the die would have just "ironed them out". I would rather know that 10% of my bullets aren't going in right. With a FCD it would have covered up the problem. Problem would have not been gone, just covered up so that I didn't know my rounds were poorly made.

[98sr20ve]

silvery37, on Nov 11 2009, 09:04 AM, said:

Carbide ring is intact. From what I can tell the sizer just isnt sizing the brass small enough. The brass I am having problems with is once fired speer and federal.

problem brass:
od after resizing .376
id after resizing .3545

I am thinking about just trying some new dies. I am looking at dillon or redding. Is one better?

My standard Lee Sizing die sizes brass to .373 O.D. and .351 I.D. I.D. is a function of brass thickness. Your brass is .0215 thick. Mine is .022 thick. So your brass is thin and your sizer is sized on the large side. Hence the problem.

This post has been edited by 98sr20ve: 11 November 2009 - 11:11 AM

[G-ManBart]

98sr20ve, on Nov 11 2009, 01:04 PM, said:

Plus, the LFCD is about .005 larger then a standard sizing die. Basically, on a straight wall case this is how sizing works (give or take a little). I will use a 10mm as the example

O.D. of 10mm is .425
Sizing die ring is .415
Sized brass springs back to .418
FCD sizing ring is sized at .422, so brass sizes back to .425 with typical brass spring back.

9mm is a little different as it's a tapered case. Sizing ring for the FCD is actually "about (I don't have my notes)" .006 smaller the the SAMMI spec. This is still larger then the SAMMI spec for the bullet+case portion of the 9mm. BUT, the FCD is still sized larger then the standard Lee sizing die for the 9mm. So, if the sizing die is setup right the FCD will not resize a case because it's larger then the same die Lee makes for the 9mm. The FCD also has the same taper/entrance as the standard lee sizing die as well. Basically, if your sizing die works in 9mm the only thing the FCD will do is size a bullet that is seated a little off. In .40 S&W/10mm it will size any case that is .422 or larger. Notice this is .003 smaller then SAMMI spec for that case. The FCD has to be sized smaller then SAMMI spec because brass typically springs back .003. I have taken all my FCD's off my press. All they do is cover up mistakes in die setup or other problems. For example, I just switched to a Hornady In Line Seating Die. It's causing me a ton of problems BUT if I had a FCD the die would have just "ironed them out". I would rather know that 10% of my bullets aren't going in right. With a FCD it would have covered up the problem. Problem would have not been gone, just covered up so that I didn't know my rounds were poorly made.

That's good stuff right there....