[smokshwn]

The March scope thread was drifting off path pretty quick so I created a new topic and moved those drifting posts here to continue the discussion.

Lets talk about what we want to see in THE PERFECT OPTIC FOR 3 GUN.

Maybe this thread can be linked to several scope company manufacturers.

-Mod Squad

00bullitt, on Nov 1 2009, 08:25 AM, said:

kgunz11, on Nov 1 2009, 10:11 AM, said:

GIO, on Nov 1 2009, 08:21 AM, said:

Thanks for the edit Flex.

Seems like MARCH is pretty well known in the Benchrest world. I wish a more "known" company with better service/warranty could reverse engineer one of these and get it to market for a little better price. If i hit the lottery,break the bank in Vegas or find that long lost rich Uncle I'll give you a test report.

They are not reverse engineering a March, but one such company has been working on a 1.5-10 that MIGHT get released at SHOT 2010.

But that company is missing the mark with a 1.5. We need a true 1x. 1.5 might as well be a 3

That last statement is DEAD NUTS accurate. We can get 1.5X scopes all day....true 1X is a tough proposition.

[kgunz11]

There are tons of 1X scopes on the market already as well.

[00bullitt]

kgunz11, on Nov 1 2009, 10:40 AM, said:

There are tons of 1X scopes on the market already as well.

Yep.....plenty of variables to 10x scopes too.

[kgunz11]

Very true. Still, making 1.5-10 is quite a feat. I agree, they'd hit a much larger market by going with a true 1X variable. If 1-10 is outside the realm of reality for them at least a 1-8 would be nice.

[00bullitt]

kgunz11, on Nov 1 2009, 11:14 AM, said:

Very true. Still, making 1.5-10 is quite a feat. I agree, they'd hit a much larger market by going with a true 1X variable. If 1-10 is outside the realm of reality for them at least a 1-8 would be nice.

1-8 with a daytime illuminated reticle would be the cats behind

Do your thang.

[smokshwn]

kgunz11, on Nov 1 2009, 08:40 AM, said:

There are tons of 1X scopes on the market already as well.

Not 1-10x....

And yes a true 1-8x would get very compelling......let's dream and bring it in at a $12-1400 price point

[kgunz11]

00bullitt, on Nov 1 2009, 12:32 PM, said:

kgunz11, on Nov 1 2009, 11:14 AM, said:

Very true. Still, making 1.5-10 is quite a feat. I agree, they'd hit a much larger market by going with a true 1X variable. If 1-10 is outside the realm of reality for them at least a 1-8 would be nice.

1-8 with a daytime illuminated reticle would be the cats behind

Do your thang.

I'm doing even better than that, I got Jerry Miculek involved. Hopefully he can convince the powers at be about the demand in such a product. When asked "Do you shoot multi-gun?" I have to answer honestly. So my input on such carries little weight. But what can I say, I was able to swing the NP-R1 and a 2.5-10 x 32, a guy can only do so much!

I was told R&D on the illumination part alone would be $30k, and that's a little more than they want to invest on a scope that already has illumination. The thought is illumination in an etched reticle scope that works in low light conditions is fulfilling it's desired purpose. Now when the military wants daylight illumination, it will happen. Believe that.

I haven't talked to Jeff much lately, and I'm due for a phone chat. I've been seriously busy and he stays that way, but I'll keep dropping hints in his ear. I'm batting 1000 so far.

[Jaxshooter]

You don't mind spending the money on a scope from somebody like Nightforce or US Optics that has a solid reputation for quality and standing behind thier product.
I have never heard of March before, not that that means alot. I would want to know alot more about them and the scopes before spending that much.

[kgunz11]

March scopes might have the best optical quality abailabe, but the lack of warranty is the problem. The glass is so clear you can almost see the future in one and they track well too.

[dt1]

Personally, I think a true 1x low end with BIG field of view with a daytime illuminated reticle + clear glass is much more important than 10x on the other end, especially for what is needed for 3-gun. I'm usually way too amped up to try to shoot flash targets at 200-400yds with anything more than 4-5x. More magnification is too jumpy. Maybe that's just me......

Is this scope really a true 1x with a 10x top end? If so, that's an unbelievable engineering feat.

[GIO]

I heard S&B is releasing a 1.1 x 8. Basically a muscled up short dot. Again, big money I'm sure.

[kgunz11]

Big money yes, lifetime warranty too. That's my beef with the March. As I said earlier, best glass in a scope hands down, but my NF scopes get the job done.

[shooter steve]

Bobby, you know that we need 1x on the bottom, and 8x would be great on top, but dang I would be happy with 6x if we could get one from somebody like NF. Why won't somebody make a scope in 1x6 that is at least a little reasonable in price, and by reasonable I understand quality optics cost. I just can't spend $2500 on a scope, but I could probably get up 12-1400 bucks like someone else has mentioned. You have more contacts than we do, please fill us in on the why's of this. Thanks--Steve

[kgunz11]

Steve, the best answer I have for you is it's in the works. Making a scope like you described would be worthless without the reticle, and that is in the hands of someone far more experienced with multigun than I. Be patient, SHOT 2010 will reveal a lot of things no one is allowed to currently talk about publicly. Some things never come to fruition, and some do. Some folks wont release anything not worthy of their name, can't blame them for that. They just take an awful long time testing them.

[00bullitt]

If NF could or would make a true 1x-6x variable with a good daytime illuminated reticle, and priced it under $1500. The military,LE and 3 gun world would be all over it.

What I'd like to see from NF would be a 1-6x variable in about the same size package as their 1-4x24 with adjustable turrets and a reticle that was suited for fast up close shooting and had a stadia tree for quick holdover references and also had knobs to dial. Magnification throw should be from about 3 o'clock to 9 o'clock. And a daytime illumintaed reticle is a must.

Erik Lund had designed a circle dot style reticle with a calibrated stadia tree and windage holdoffs. Great fast reticle that allowed precision. Put that reticle in a 6x scope from a reputable optic mfg and it would be heaven for 3 gunners and the military.

I think he got USO to etch him a prototype reticle in one of their SN4's and ran it most of this season with great success.

[dt1]

The Nightforce 1-4x that's out now is an excellent scope for 3-gun. No greater magnification (than 4x) needed IMO. Just need a better reticle as Tod describes above and daytime illumination. I shot a NF 1-4x (NP-1 reticle) for over a year and never wished for more power. The glass is crystal clear. It's on my AR-10 now, plenty of magnification to hit flash targets out to 500yds.

It must be difficult from an engineering standpoint to make the reticle daytime illuminated. Am I wrong or is a 1-10x power range outrageous (the March scope)?

This post has been edited by dt1: 02 November 2009 - 02:59 AM

[00bullitt]

While I agree with Dave that 4x is plenty for 3 gun.....6x is really nice to have and comes in very handy. But the daytime illuminated reticle is what takes the cake. Why do you think the S&B Short Dot became so popular?

[Merlin Orr]

I have seen no one mention a good wide Field of View.... IMO much more critical than an illuminated reticle. When you bring the scope up on closer targets and see the one you are aiming for as well as the one (and more) you are transitioning to it is a huge advantage. This remains true for all distances. When you have the scope cranked up to max power and can see a 300 yard target but can't see the one 40 yards over and 30 yards further out without taking you eye from the scope or searching around trying to locate the target you are at a big disadvantage and have just lost time on your stage.

More magnification nearly always comes at the price of reduction of FOV and barrel distortion around the edges. Technology can do a lot but.....

Dependability, Clear glass and a good field of view along with a decent reticle will allow you to shoot very well. Everything else in a scope's feature set is icing on the cake.

My .02.

[00bullitt]

Merlin Orr, on Nov 2 2009, 12:26 PM, said:

I have seen no one mention a good wide Field of View.... IMO much more critical than an illuminated reticle. When you bring the scope up on closer targets and see the one you are aiming for as well as the one (and more) you are transitioning to it is a huge advantage. This remains true for all distances. When you have the scope cranked up to max power and can see a 300 yard target but can't see the one 40 yards over and 30 yards further out without taking you eye from the scope or searching around trying to locate the target you are at a big disadvantage and have just lost time on your stage.

More magnification nearly always comes at the price of reduction of FOV and barrel distortion around the edges. Technology can do a lot but.....

Dependability, Clear glass and a good field of view along with a decent reticle will allow you to shoot very well. Everything else in a scope's feature set is icing on the cake.

My .02.

Yep....very good points

[smokshwn]

+1 with Merlin.

In many of these threads on magnification I have pointed out that unless the FOV is there more magnification is a double edged sword.

But I have to disagree with the idea that daytime illumination is just icing. When you are shooting in and out of shadows in natural terrain (think RM3G) or with varying backgrounds, that illumination becomes much more than icing. Many times in those situations it is very difficult to pick up black reticle lines in dark shadow.

That being said, I simply can't understand the story about daytime visible illumination being so hard to develop... many scopes already have it. It seems as though those companies heavily influenced by the tactical/military community don't think it is necessary and are unwilling/uninterested in providing it.

[Alaskapopo]

dt1, on Nov 2 2009, 03:58 AM, said:

The Nightforce 1-4x that's out now is an excellent scope for 3-gun. No greater magnification (than 4x) needed IMO. Just need a better reticle as Tod describes above and daytime illumination. I shot a NF 1-4x (NP-1 reticle) for over a year and never wished for more power. The glass is crystal clear. It's on my AR-10 now, plenty of magnification to hit flash targets out to 500yds.

It must be difficult from an engineering standpoint to make the reticle daytime illuminated. Am I wrong or is a 1-10x power range outrageous (the March scope)?

I like Nightforce scopes but I like my Swarovski Z6i even more. Daylight illumination is the cake. The reticle catches your eye faster at least for me.




Pat

[Bear1142]

Okay, I guess I can finally let the cat out of the bag.

As it's been mentioned, I've been working with US Optics to develop a reticle for 3-gun. This reticle is available on their SN-4 series of scopes. After using the scope this entire shooting season and making a few slight revisions, here is the new reticle.

 Reticle_page1.ppt (99K)
Number of downloads: 318

The reticle was designed as a close quarters reticle that can go long distance if needed. It is calibrated for 69gr. bullets at 2,850 fps and it will also work for 75 & 77gr loads around 2,700 fps. For more details on the scope, check with Chris at CPWSA. He is a US Optics dealer and he will be taking orders for the scope very shortly.

Erik

This post has been edited by Bear1142: 04 November 2009 - 08:18 AM

[kurtm]

Erik, I can't get that reticle page to open, however if it looks like a TA-11 Doughnut, you are really onto SOMETING!!!

[Bear1142]

Kurt,

You need Powerpoint to open it. Try it again. I tried to post it as an image but I can't figure out how to insert the image. You might have to save it first, then open it.

Erik

This post has been edited by Bear1142: 04 November 2009 - 08:22 AM

[kgunz11]

Erik, here's a photo of your reticle.

 Lund.JPG (25.59K)
Number of downloads: 182