[chendersby]

I hear a lot of comments that USPSA has too many rules but never any specifics.

Specifically list the rules you have a problem with or think are not needed. Also let's leave the scoring system out of this.

This post has been edited by chendersby: 04 November 2009 - 07:51 AM

[kurtm]

Outside of Open shotguns not being ...well...open, and box fed shotguns not being allowed into tactical classes, there is nothing wrong with the rules. After all, as it has been stated many times even the outlaw matches fall back on the safety rules of USPSA so how can anything be bad. KurtM

[Bryan 45]

Delete the requirement for the pistol in HM to be a single stack.

Delete the stage balance guidelines. Leave it up to match directors. (hopefully less pistol, more rifle/shotgun.

Delete all language related to short, medium, long courses.

Delete requirement for all targets to be of a type approved by USPSA. Again, leave it up to the MD.

more later.

[GentlemanJim]

More divercity in targets
8 rnd box fed shotguns in tactical
No 10 round limitation in open shotguns


With a little fine tuning USPSA Multigun could grow at an incredible rate
Jim

[BerKim]

I think most matches put Magazine shotguns in Open.. are there big matches that don't? So, this rule should stay.

For tactical, I could go either way on 9 rounds maximum, vs 9 rounds at start. If I got to vote, I'd make it like most other IMG matches, and 9 rounds at start, but then let you feed it up.

I'd make timeplus an option at all levels of USPSA matches. Not Just Level 1 and 2

I still think some of the USPSA rules. for example: unbagging long guns at the car should be re-thought.

And flying clays, not hit, should not be mikes. You'd still get an FTE for not shooting it if that applies, but make it a non-penalty mike.


For what it's worth.. Dave

[ken hebert]

Make 'em look more like this:

http://www.rm3g.com/...0Rules-2010.pdf


Except for the evenly cinched mags in tac and lim.

[bigbrowndog]

I'm going to disagree with Bryan, the short, medium and long course stage percentages should stay, it makes for good match/shooter flow.

I do think all shotguns should be max capacity at the start and after that load it up, no round count limitations

I think a minimum target size should be adopted for rifle, 4moa would be my suggestion.

with that in mind any target meeting the requirement size should be accepted.

Also all rifle steel targets should FALL, and be painted for each competitor

Do away with unarbitratable targets, ie, flying clays as scoring/penalty targets

Allow any 44 caliber handgun or larger in HM, and limit capacity to 10 rds.

I do think round counts should be changed regarding short, medium and long courses, considering the norm is a 20-30 round mag for the rifle, Short(10-15rds) Medium(16-30rds) Long(31-50rds.). For SG since you are dealing with all types, Short(5-9) Medium(11-18) Long(19-24).

trapr

[gose]

BerKim, on Nov 4 2009, 10:24 AM, said:

I think most matches put Magazine shotguns in Open.. are there big matches that don't? So, this rule should stay.
For tactical, I could go either way on 9 rounds maximum, vs 9 rounds at start. If I got to vote, I'd make it like most other IMG matches, and 9 rounds at start, but then let you feed it up.
I'd make timeplus an option at all levels of USPSA matches. Not Just Level 1 and 2
I still think some of the USPSA rules. for example: unbagging long guns at the car should be re-thought.
And flying clays, not hit, should not be mikes. You'd still get an FTE for not shooting it if that applies, but make it a non-penalty mike.
For what it's worth.. Dave

Flying clays are already NPM in USPSA

Removing mag limit in Open would be nice.

This post has been edited by gose: 04 November 2009 - 12:19 PM

[bigbrowndog]

One more thing, Shooting at LR rifle targets should not require a conversation between shooter and RO, whether its one sided or not. This is the reason rifle steel should FALL.

There are no pistol steel that require calling of hits while shooting, that I can recall. It should be the same for all targets and all weapons.


Trapr

[Bryan 45]

Great point on the comparison of pistol steel vs. rifle steel, Trapr.

And I see what you're saying on the mix of short/med/long. I didn't consider how things can get backed-up if all the courses were long and medium. I'm just not a fan of short courses.

[P.Pres]

Looks like some here are takeing the opportunity to try to change some outlaw rules as
well, while we are at it !!

I like the scoring and target options suggested as well as the minumum 4MOA rule.

The problem is if we really want the sport to advance to the next level then we have to
unite everything and just piss off half the people, it's not like they are going to stay home
if they have no other option right ?

Either USPSA will have to get it all together and just take over, creating an atmosphere where
"local" and maybe even some outlaw matches are shot under USPSA rules and not just the few
majors that people "put up" with. Dont ask, I have no idea how this could ever happen ..

Or my personal favored choice, a real IMGA with "REAL" members, fees, and stuff !!





Please send cash only to PO box 5555 at ....

[1chota]

P.Pres, on Nov 4 2009, 01:57 PM, said:

Looks like some here are takeing the opportunity to try to change some outlaw rules as
well, while we are at it !!

I like the scoring and target options suggested as well as the minumum 4MOA rule.

The problem is if we really want the sport to advance to the next level then we have to
unite everything and just piss off half the people, it's not like they are going to stay home
if they have no other option right ?

Either USPSA will have to get it all together and just take over, creating an atmosphere where
"local" and maybe even some outlaw matches are shot under USPSA rules and not just the few
majors that people "put up" with. Dont ask, I have no idea how this could ever happen ..

Or my personal favored choice, a real IMGA with "REAL" members, fees, and stuff !!


something must be needed as all you have to do is look at the turn outs at the matches. larue, fn, dpms, rm3g, smm3g...........

1chota


Please send cash only to PO box 5555 at ....

[Stlhead]

Rifle steel should fall, and be painted, plus have a backer if required to assure visibility to all shooters. 4 MOA minimum rifle steel would be nice. Open shotguns should have no limit on mag capacity, starting or otherwise. Heavy metal pistols should be .44 or greater with no more than 8 in a magazine if magazine fed, revolvers should be major power factor of any caliber with no more than 8 in the cylinder (why should the revolver shooters be limited to 6 shots? We are handicapped enough). double stacks should be allowed in heavy metal if downloaded to 8.

[Charles Bond]

Stlhead, on Nov 4 2009, 05:06 PM, said:

Rifle steel should fall, and be painted, plus have a backer if required to assure visibility to all shooters. 4 MOA minimum rifle steel would be nice. Open shotguns should have no limit on mag capacity, starting or otherwise. Heavy metal pistols should be .44 or greater with no more than 8 in a magazine if magazine fed, revolvers should be major power factor of any caliber with no more than 8 in the cylinder (why should the revolver shooters be limited to 6 shots? We are handicapped enough). double stacks should be allowed in heavy metal if downloaded to 8.

Which matches have 4MOA rifle steel? I have never seen a match advertise it if any are in fact doing it. This is pretty easy to do at 100 or 200 yards but I wonder if this is so important if we have falling steel or if it is going to make it too expensive for a match to purchase this size steel for 400 yards plus.

Why should heavy metal have no more than 8 in a magazine if we are not going to limit it to single stack?

Why should revolver rules in multigun be different than the rules for pistol?

[Jim Norman]

I'll argue against box mags for SG in Tactical. a box mag is a speed loader, it belongs in Open.

SG Capacity in tactical, 8+1 and tube no more than x (2? 3?) inches beyond barrel.

Forget Short, long and medium courses, what a MD needs is to figure the time it takes to clear a stage. High round count stage with no movers and all cose can take less time to clear than a short course that requires a lot of reset and time to shoot.

HM can be so many things, .308/30-06 30 round box and .45 SS flush mags and pump SG. Or it could be a complete parallel to Open, Tac-Op and Tac-Iron. then toss in Trooper for a real mix.

One rule I'd like to see is that we can specify a mandatory reload in a COF. After engaging the first target and prior to engaging the last target. Not specifically where or when, just that you have to do it.

Another would be to allow for downloaded starts. It accomplishes the same as the above, but I'd require that the gun go dry to reload.

Jim

[bigbrowndog]

Charles, a 4moa target is just that, if the MD can't afford bigger steel then don't set it further than the required 4moa. PERIOD!!! Why does the rule have to pre-exist in order to want it included in a rule set????

As for him wanting to limit HM to 8 rounds, I can see it due to him being a wheelie shooter, however if any caliber making Major for HM is a requirement then a Chrono is a must!!!!

As for multigun rules being different than pistol rules, thats what this whole thing is about, pistol has driven too many rules for a game that it only has a 33% interest in.

We were asked for changes or improvements to the existing rules, why second guess someones ideas, HERE!!!!

I may not agree with them but I'm willing to listen to the reasons for wanting them that way, just as I would expect them to listen to my reasons.

trapr

[P.Pres]

Trapr,

You know a while back some guy did some "3gun rules polls".

Seems like the same discussion again ?? I'm done, you guys set the rules
,mark them "clearly" in the rules, I'll check the night before the match and comply !!

This post has been edited by P.Pres: 04 November 2009 - 05:56 PM

[Charles Bond]

bigbrowndog, on Nov 4 2009, 06:53 PM, said:

Charles, a 4moa target is just that, if the MD can't afford bigger steel then don't set it further than the required 4moa. PERIOD!!! Why does the rule have to pre-exist in order to want it included in a rule set????

As for him wanting to limit HM to 8 rounds, I can see it due to him being a wheelie shooter, however if any caliber making Major for HM is a requirement then a Chrono is a must!!!!

As for multigun rules being different than pistol rules, thats what this whole thing is about, pistol has driven too many rules for a game that it only has a 33% interest in.

We were asked for changes or improvements to the existing rules, why second guess someones ideas, HERE!!!!

I may not agree with them but I'm willing to listen to the reasons for wanting them that way, just as I would expect them to listen to my reasons.

trapr

I am not clear why if all the shooters in a division have to shoot something the same way why that is unfair or even less than ideal.

If every shooter has to shoot a 2moa target, all we accomplish by saying it has to be replaced with a 4 moa is to make the stage easier and speed up the stage. What I have repeatedly heard is give the MD more choice by allowing a wider selection of targets and allowing smaller targets to simulate distance. Only here have I heard that we need larger targets. We hear that the better matches have more real rifle stages and a big part of that is using the rilfes at distance. And now we are going to tell MDs that in order to shoot the distance they might be lucky enough to have at their match that they have to purchase larger targets?

Let us be clear, as wheel guns in multigun this is much ado about nothing. I have seen wheel guns at 3 gun matches but never at any multigun match. And aside from selling lots of 8rd guns to those that are running 6 rd wheel guns, how do we advance the sport of multigun? Now someone could think USPSA should allow 8 rd revolvers but that is a pistol equipment question and not a multigun question. But again, if all the wheel guns can only hold 6 rds, how is that unfair? How would it be better for the sport to allow 8 rd wheelies?

I am told that the short, long, medium mix of stages is restrictive and we should leave it the discretion of the MD but the vast majority of our shooters who are over 55 do not see it that way. I have been told we have too many rules. I have heard that we need to open thngs up. Is it not logically inconsistent to give the MD more power of design and then turn around and say that all of his targets have to be at least ___moa, that they have to alter their target design so all steel falls and they have to buy target backers? And there would be strong economic consequences. Were the ranges to choose to absorb the costs the effect would be less USPSA multigun matches not more. Were the ranges to pass along the increased costs to the shooters, that would result in higher match fees for members hwo are already shooting less matches due to a tight economy.

As to your observation that the rules are pistol driven, I think yoiu are wrong. The rules are driven by safety and incidently to respond to another post that is why NROI reviews stages at larger matches. There are in our set of rules some value judgements but that is true of any sport. It might be tempting to say there should be no limit to the number of rounds in open shotgun but that begs the question of why no one ever complains about magazine tube length in open pistol.

Jim Norman made the point that rules should allow requiring a reload in rifle since it is all but impossible to design stages where one is necessary. Were we to have no max limit on shotgun rounds in open, we would create the same problem. That is likely going to have someone pose the question as to whether we should limit rounds that may be loaded in the rifle magazines. To that I would say that if we are going to limit capacity in shotgun and pistol, it is certainly logically consistent to limit rounds in a rifle mag. And that last statement is coming from a guy who owns a couple of Beta Mags and at least half a dozen Nordic extensions for his PMags.

This post has been edited by Charles Bond: 04 November 2009 - 06:16 PM

[Stlhead]

Charles Bond, on Nov 4 2009, 02:30 PM, said:

Stlhead, on Nov 4 2009, 05:06 PM, said:

Rifle steel should fall, and be painted, plus have a backer if required to assure visibility to all shooters. 4 MOA minimum rifle steel would be nice. Open shotguns should have no limit on mag capacity, starting or otherwise. Heavy metal pistols should be .44 or greater with no more than 8 in a magazine if magazine fed, revolvers should be major power factor of any caliber with no more than 8 in the cylinder (why should the revolver shooters be limited to 6 shots? We are handicapped enough). double stacks should be allowed in heavy metal if downloaded to 8.

Which matches have 4MOA rifle steel? I have never seen a match advertise it if any are in fact doing it. This is pretty easy to do at 100 or 200 yards but I wonder if this is so important if we have falling steel or if it is going to make it too expensive for a match to purchase this size steel for 400 yards plus.

Why should heavy metal have no more than 8 in a magazine if we are not going to limit it to single stack?

Why should revolver rules in multigun be different than the rules for pistol?

I have never been to a match with 4 MOA steel. But I think it would not be a bad idea. The guys with optics should be able to hit the steel faster if it is a bit larger, and the irons guys will have a better chance at seeing the targets. Yes more steel will be required to fabricate the targets, but a 16" plate at 400 is not much bigger than the 12" plates that I see now. As to the falling part, have you ever had an RO call out a miss when you KNEW you hit the steel? Or had one call a hit when you knew it was a miss? I like my hits to be indicated as positively as possible, and not rely on a guy who may not like me or my face, or may be pissed at my squad for shooting trooper. If it is not possible to have falling steel at the longer ranges then possibly treat them more like a disappearing target and remove the miss penalty? But the points would need to be sufficient to not make it an advantage to skip the targets as a game plan. Falling steel requires reset, but there is much less question when it comes time to score.

The rule is 8 + 1 now single stack only. I don't see a competitive advantage to using a downloaded double stack, so I think it would be reasonable to allow someone to use a double stack if they have one. I did not make the .44 or larger rule, I could care less as long as it is major and the capacity is left at the 8 + 1. I don't want to start an arms race in heavy metal, just allow other equipment that people may have that would not cause an undue advantage. The intent of the division was that it would be shot with a single stack shooting 45 ACP, 12 ga. pump, and a .308, as long as the equipment does not offer a competitive advantage to the competitor over the originally specified equipment, I would think that it should be allowed.

Heavy metal already has different rules than pistol now. Multigun is a different game. In pistol there is a division for six shooters, I am not advocating a different division of heavy metal for six shooters. I just think it would be more equitable if 8 shot revolvers where allowed. I use a 6 shot in heavy metal now but would be at less of a disadvantage if the rules allowed me to use an 8 shot, I still would be giving up one round to start and some on the reloads, so the bottom loaders should be happy with their advantage. The rules already call for the ammo to be major, if there is a crono stage or not now does not really matter. It is now left to the competitors honor in most cases, if people think there is cheating going on they should call for ammo to be tested more often.

I will still use a revolver for heavy metal as long as they are allowed by the rules. If no rule changes come about I will still compete and enjoy it. It was my understanding that this thread was a discussion about possible changes to the rules of USPSA multigun. I only shoot heavy metal and open, so those are the only divisions I would comment on.

Thanks

[Stlhead]

Do you really think there would be a bunch of heavy metal shooters lining up to buy 8 shot revolvers? Even if 8 shot revolvers where allowed, I can't imagine more than a couple of people actually using them as they are still at a disadvantage to a single stack.

[Jim Norman]

a 4 MOA target is a target that 'should' be able to be hit by a reasonable person using iron sights.

Figure the size of your average zombie, 20" across at the shoulders. A 4MOA target allows us to simulate a 500 yard shot on a 100 yard range. Most places we go to shoot will have 100 yards, not many will have more than 300. So a 12" plate is acceptable. No one says we can't use a bigger target, just that there should be a minimum. (this from a guy that likes to on occasion shoot at golf balls with a .22 at 100 yards.) but that isn't for a 3gun mach.

Rather than place limits on round counts in rifles, I personally favor the required reload. This allows you to use anything you already have, and doesn't necessarily penalize the persons that don't have the freedom or money to buy other equipment.

One target we like at Old Bridge is clay rabbits hung with clothespins on cord. 99% of hits will shatter the clay, occasionally you'll get a hole. They are good to 100 yards using the 4MOS rule and are interestingly difficult at 10 yards.

Jim

[kimel]

Thanks for asking Chris!

Make all round count limitations in shotgun "at the start" only. It is very hard to enforce the current limits, especially in Open, when you have no real notion how many rounds just made it in with that speed loader. Since shotguns are incrementally loaded and some of the speedy guys in Tactical can be rough to count if you can't see what they are doing.

Maybe put a mag tube max length on non-Open shotguns to control capacity that way. And if folks want to start running short rounds to get that extra shot, so be it.

As the rule stands it is impossible to enforce equitably.

I thought a lot about this while running folks at Vegas and I even tried to keep track but quickly found it was very difficult to do.

[bigbrowndog]

For SG's the length rule for mag tubes isn't good due to the length differences in factory loaded rounds, more than once a shooter has plugged the gun in good faith using the rounds they normally use only to find that the slugs or Buck they shoot will now allow more or sometimes less rounds than the shot ammo they normally shoot. Also who has authority to say 3" shells cannot be used, then you can obviously get more 2.75" shells into the gun, so is the shooter DQ'd or moved to Open because of it????????????

Simply have the max rounds at the start, and be done with it. RO's have enough to be concerned with during a COF without needing to count rounds going into the gun.

I'm tired of most all of this crap, and trying to get people to see how things can be improved. Charles you can probably determine from this topic post alone how and why USPSA matches do not and will not measure up to the so called outlaw matches, people give you advice they were asked to give and you say, BS, or Oh no we can't do that.
BTW, who had the first Major 3 gun/multigun match...................USPSA or someone else??????????

Like P.Pres. said..........................I'm done with this topic.

[LChico]

bigbrowndog, on Nov 4 2009, 10:11 PM, said:

For SG's the length rule for mag tubes isn't good due to the length differences in factory loaded rounds, more than once a shooter has plugged the gun in good faith using the rounds they normally use only to find that the slugs or Buck they shoot will now allow more or sometimes less rounds than the shot ammo they normally shoot. Also who has authority to say 3" shells cannot be used, then you can obviously get more 2.75" shells into the gun, so is the shooter DQ'd or moved to Open because of it????????????

Simply have the max rounds at the start, and be done with it. RO's have enough to be concerned with during a COF without needing to count rounds going into the gun.

I'm tired of most all of this crap, and trying to get people to see how things can be improved. Charles you can probably determine from this topic post alone how and why USPSA matches do not and will not measure up to the so called outlaw matches, people give you advice they were asked to give and you say, BS, or Oh no we can't do that.
BTW, who had the first Major 3 gun/multigun match...................USPSA or someone else??????????

Like P.Pres. said..........................I'm done with this topic.

Trapr

Charles did not start this topic. Chris Endersby did. I was really happy to see that based on his interest in working to improve USPSA Multigun after the 2008 USPSA Multigun Nationals (he posted asking for thoughts on how to improve USPSA multigun and really took the suggestions and put weeks of work into the 2009 match).

Not everyone will agree. That is a given. But there are people in USPSA who are trying to learn from the people who put on successful multigun matches and who really want the input. Please do not allow a few negative posters to shut down this thread. Some of us are not typing lengthy replies and rebuttals because we are gathering information.

Linda Chico (L-2035)
Columbia SC

[ken hebert]

LChico, on Nov 4 2009, 09:34 PM, said:

But there are people in USPSA who are trying to learn from the people who put on successful multigun matches and who really want the input.

Linda Chico (L-2035)
Columbia SC

Then look at the common denominator of those successful matches. It is very evident.