[sigfla]

I have noticed lately that as my speed has increased so has my tendency to slap the trigger. When this occurs my shooting obviously suffers. The "slap" tends to occur when I exert too much force on the trigger both in dry fire and real fire. I generally push left at that point even if I have a good sight picture. it is frustrating b/c I am seeing my sights reset fairly well and to pull the shot is difficult to accept. I find myself taking several additional shots to clean up my bad hits and then I have to purposely slow down to keep from pulling them due to bad trigger control.

Everything else seems on track as far as my technique goes. I am drawing well and controlling the gun to a consistent reset of the sights but then I slap the trigger hard and it all goes to hell. I have seen the reset drills and ball and dummy drills but wanted to know if anyone else has anything to train my finger to exert just enough force to break the shot and no more at speed. Do I just need to fire a couple thousand rounds into the berm to work on it or what?

[mike cyrwus]

Keep an eye on your accuracy.
Ramp up the speed till your slapping causes fewer points. Then, dial it back a notch til the points come back.
Then ramp up the speed again.
Then repeat.

Its a constant jockeying of speed vs. accuracy.

The good thing is every time you switch back and forth, youll kick up your baseline ability.

What you are experiencing is what you should be experiencing.


edit: notice I didnt mention your finger at all. Just let it come along with the ride.

This post has been edited by mike cyrwus: 29 October 2009 - 12:27 PM

[Pat Harrison]

I think you'll find what you are experiencing is an overall feeling of tension or trying to rush shots on close targets. You don't need to fire a couple of thousand rounds, just pay attention to what you are feeling. Start with a bill drill at 50m, then 35, then 25, then 15, 10, 7, and 5m. Find out at what distances you really start to feel the tension come on, in your shouldersm forearms and hands. Note differences at every distance.

[Graham Smith]

sigfla, on Oct 29 2009, 03:16 PM, said:

I have noticed lately that as my speed has increased so has my tendency to slap the trigger.

Been there. Done that. Have the score sheets.

Speed
Points:
Hitpoints:

[benos]

Good advice from Mike and Pat.

To reiterate, it isn't something that can be "cured" by firing a certain number of rounds. Paying attention to your tension level is a never ending activity.
be

[P.Pres]

When I get bad I remind myself to squeez the crap out of the gun with my
"weak" hand, that way I have something to focus on and all that tension, flinch, push, in my
strong hand subsides...

[Flexmoney]

P.Pres, on Oct 29 2009, 04:41 PM, said:

When I get bad I remind myself to squeez the crap out of the gun with my
"weak" hand, that way I have something to focus on and all that tension, flinch, push, in my
strong hand subsides...

I'll give that a "me too"...with some added pontificating.

I think the real culprit is that, when shooters want to "go fast", they tense up in an effort to TRY to control the gun. Most will tense up with their strong hand. Doing so mucks up the trigger pull.

I still want a good handle on the gun (especially when its a 22-24oz gun). If I can't get that from the strong hand, due to screwing up the trigger pull...it's gotta come from the other hand.

In reality, we probably know we aren't going to be at our best when tense (neither in speed nor accuracy). however, we may not be able to stop the tension. So, we do need to be aware of it and see where that takes us.

[Sam]

Quote

I think the real culprit is that, when shooters want to "go fast",

-Flex


So, is it the speed or the "want to" that is causing the tension?





Can we just allow the speed to manifest..... independently of the "want to"?

[Pat Harrison]

Apparantly not...lol

[Pat Harrison]

It's the wanting that causes the tension. Or maybe better explained than that, it's the trying in order to satisfy the wanting

[mike cyrwus]

Quote

So, is it the speed or the "want to" that is causing the tension?

fast speed is the opposite of tension.

Fast is what the gun does if you allow it, its not a button you push on the dashboard of your gun when you think you need turbo boost.

[Ron Ankeny]

What's wrong with slapping the trigger if the difficulty level of the shot combined with the "slapper's" ability to come straight back without yanking the sights out of alignment results in an adequate hit? For that matter, I am confused as to how tension could actually result the shooter's ability to quickly manipulate the trigger?

edited to add, Mike posted while I was typing.

This post has been edited by Ron Ankeny: 29 October 2009 - 03:59 PM

[P.Pres]

mike cyrwus, on Oct 29 2009, 04:45 PM, said:

Quote

So, is it the speed or the "want to" that is causing the tension?

fast speed is the opposite of tension.

Fast is what the gun does if you allow it, its not a button you push on the dashboard of your gun when you think you need turbo boost.

As oppose to slow speed ??

I just dont get it ? I cant function at that speed without tension so for me I try to find a
way to work with it. For example, we just shot a modified steel challenge match this weekend
and I think this was probably the best place for me to deal with tension. If I want to pull a garanteed
sub-second draw (by now I know what that should "feel" like) from surrender, just the initial act of
getting my arms moving in the right direction causes tension. Tension of my stomach muslces
tightening as I begin to move ??

I have shot runs (especially in this SC format) where I am so tense during the act that it feels like I cant lift the gun
out of the holster, the run may have still been pretty good, but I know that if I was able to do it
without the tension then it would have been at that "next level".

Yes, the "want" causes the tension but without the want there is no result, at my level anyway !!
A .92 draw without the want and tension becomes a 1.2 ??

[mike cyrwus]

Ron Ankeny, on Oct 29 2009, 05:58 PM, said:

What's wrong with slapping the trigger if the difficulty level of the shot combined with the "slapper's" ability to come straight back without yanking the sights out of alignment results in an adequate hit? For that matter, I am confused as to how tension could actually result the shooter's ability to quickly manipulate the trigger?

edited to add, Mike posted while I was typing.

slapping, slack-out, whatever works. I agree with you there.

I cant get the picture of shooting the "can you count" classifier.

Trying to rip off a good run on that stage will show how tension is counter productive.

Anytime I try and luck into a good run on a stage tension inevitably develops.

Actually before this initial post, I never thought of it as tension; just as "going too fast"... -Doing something I cant do.

On the timer, Youre only as fast as you are.

[sigfla]

I just had dry fire session here at home. I used my trusty 1911 and my M&P for comparison purposes. The 1911 pushed left if I started turning up the speed and my finger began pushing the gun. My M&P wasn't as bad probably due to the stye of the trigger more than anything in dry fire. It was an interesting comparison though. I am tempted to see if removing my over travel screw on the 1911 would have any effect after playing with the M&P. I have mine set pretty tight on the 1911 for target shooting but I wonder if a little bit of over travel may give me a little cushion buffer when I start cranking on the trigger. I tend to push hard when going quick and maybe I am adding to the problem by pressing the trigger up against a hard stop?

The M&P and my Glock don't have a hard stop and I have found I don't seem to push as much when working the trigger as hard. Maybe something to try??

[P.Pres]

sigfla, on Oct 29 2009, 06:54 PM, said:

I just had dry fire session here at home. I used my trusty 1911 and my M&P for comparison purposes. The 1911 pushed left if I started turning up the speed and my finger began pushing the gun. My M&P wasn't as bad probably due to the stye of the trigger more than anything in dry fire. It was an interesting comparison though. I am tempted to see if removing my over travel screw on the 1911 would have any effect after playing with the M&P. I have mine set pretty tight on the 1911 for target shooting but I wonder if a little bit of over travel may give me a little cushion buffer when I start cranking on the trigger. I tend to push hard when going quick and maybe I am adding to the problem by pressing the trigger up against a hard stop?

The M&P and my Glock don't have a hard stop and I have found I don't seem to push as much when working the trigger as hard. Maybe something to try??

Yes, backing out the overtravel screw can help but you still cant pull a 3lbs trigger with 8lbs of finger, thats
where that is coming from. Lots of dryfire at a casual speed with cocking the hammer everytime will work
to fix that. Learning where the trigger travel is done, you dont need that much presure. I also hold the trigger back sometimes while racking the slide and then try to release the reset and drop the hammer in one motion without disturbing the sights to ingrain my specific trigger even more.

[P.Pres]

mike cyrwus, on Oct 29 2009, 06:29 PM, said:

Ron Ankeny, on Oct 29 2009, 05:58 PM, said:

What's wrong with slapping the trigger if the difficulty level of the shot combined with the "slapper's" ability to come straight back without yanking the sights out of alignment results in an adequate hit? For that matter, I am confused as to how tension could actually result the shooter's ability to quickly manipulate the trigger?

edited to add, Mike posted while I was typing.

slapping, slack-out, whatever works. I agree with you there.

I cant get the picture of shooting the "can you count" classifier.

Trying to rip off a good run on that stage will show how tension is counter productive.

Anytime I try and luck into a good run on a stage tension inevitably develops.

Actually before this initial post, I never thought of it as tension; just as "going too fast"... -Doing something I cant do.

On the timer, Youre only as fast as you are.

"Can you count" I've shot that one a couple times and have had some goods runs on it but the one I remember
that did'nt go as well, I trigger froze on the last target from almost the feeling of pushing the gun through the target.

I totally agree with you on going too fast, the more you push at or past 100% of your ability the tighter it gets
obviously. Thats why I said "at my level", I guess ideal would be to shoot a 100% classifier while shooting at
80% or your ability ..

[Flexmoney]

Ron Ankeny, on Oct 29 2009, 06:58 PM, said:

What's wrong with slapping the trigger if the difficulty level of the shot combined with the "slapper's" ability to come straight back without yanking the sights out of alignment results in an adequate hit?

The OP used the term "slapping" to mean that he wasn't working the trigger straight back.

Confusion of terms, I believe.

[Graham Smith]

Ron Ankeny, on Oct 29 2009, 06:58 PM, said:

What's wrong with slapping the trigger if the difficulty level of the shot combined with the "slapper's" ability to come straight back without yanking the sights out of alignment results in an adequate hit? For that matter, I am confused as to how tension could actually result the shooter's ability to quickly manipulate the trigger?

At least one very good shooter slaps the trigger - can't recall who. But for most people (i.e. me), slapping means that they are going too fast and are out of control.

A couple weeks ago, I was at a shooting camp and we were doing a lot of off angle, off axis, one-handed and shooting while moving. There was no way to keep my normal grip (which is pretty much all I had been practicing) so my hand pressure was erratic, the barrel was going all over the place and trigger control was out the window. On Sunday, we were shooting against par times and about half way through I realized that I was still shooting like I had been that morning with the strong hand wrapped well around the grip and proving most of the gripping force. As soon as I eased up on that and got my hand back to a better position the gun settled down, my accuracy went up and my times went down. It was dramatic proof (to me) that grip and trigger control go hand in hand (pardon the pun) and are perhaps that single most important part of shooting.

[P.Pres]

Graham Smith, on Oct 30 2009, 07:15 AM, said:

At least one very good shooter slaps the trigger - can't recall who.

TGO and TJ !!

[DUKE]

P.Pres, on Oct 30 2009, 04:00 PM, said:

Graham Smith, on Oct 30 2009, 07:15 AM, said:

At least one very good shooter slaps the trigger - can't recall who.

TGO and TJ !!

Hack said TGO is a Cyborg when it comes to the mastery of the shooting skills! I think anyone on this site would tend to agree.

[benos]

You can't do anything well if you are tense. What we call "tension" means tightening the antagonistic muscles (muscles that are not required to perform an activity). If you tighten your triceps sufficiently while trying to lift a pen off a table, you won't be able to lift the pen. Apply that filter to every movement you do when drawing and shooting.

For the IPSC shooter, tension is the result of the conscious or unconscious desire to shoot at a speed greater than you can call your shots at. The root of this "trying to go fast" is uncertainty. One of last and hardest things an IPSC shooter learns is: If I just shoot as fast as I can call my shots, I will be fast enough.
be

[CHA-LEE]

"One of last and hardest things an IPSC shooter learns is: If I just shoot as fast as I can call my shots, I will be fast enough."

That is an awesome statement!!!!!

[BBoyle]

sigfla, on Oct 30 2009, 04:54 AM, said:

I just had dry fire session here at home. I used my trusty 1911 and my M&P for comparison purposes. The 1911 pushed left if I started turning up the speed and my finger began pushing the gun. My M&P wasn't as bad probably due to the stye of the trigger more than anything in dry fire. It was an interesting comparison though. I am tempted to see if removing my over travel screw on the 1911 would have any effect after playing with the M&P. I have mine set pretty tight on the 1911 for target shooting but I wonder if a little bit of over travel may give me a little cushion buffer when I start cranking on the trigger. I tend to push hard when going quick and maybe I am adding to the problem by pressing the trigger up against a hard stop?

The M&P and my Glock don't have a hard stop and I have found I don't seem to push as much when working the trigger as hard. Maybe something to try??

I think you found the, or an, answer.

IMHO a lot of shooters like the shortest possible reset on their triggers because it gives them the fastest possible splits. Back out on the overtravel a little and you will not have to worry about pulling the shots as much if at all. It should also help eliminate trigger freeze if it is there.

I try not to overcomplicate things, if you are shooting well and think what you are doing is right and working for you I would not start questioning all the techniques you are applying unless you find that they are actually questionable. When you start questioning techniques your technique will suffer. The overtravel screw is a simple adjustment that might be all that is needed. If the problem persists look in other areas.

[sigfla]

I made that mistake a few months ago. I began re-reading Brians book and anything else I could find on grip and overall index. I found my index and grip both needed some consistency work but the problem is once I started questioning things I didn't know when to stop.

On the trigger issue I removed the overtravel screw all together and will be shooting a match tomorrow morning. I will let you know on the results but my dry fire drills lately seem to be getting better.