[kmca]

I was at a level 1 match last weekend and the shooter ahead of me (single stack) got a procedural for using a magazine from his pocket instead of the one left in his mag pouch. I tried finding it in the rules, but no luck. Was this right?

Thanks.

[Alan Meek]

kmca, on Oct 29 2009, 12:04 PM, said:

I was at a level 1 match last weekend and the shooter ahead of me (single stack) got a procedural for using a magazine from his pocket instead of the one left in his mag pouch. I tried finding it in the rules, but no luck. Was this right?

Thanks.

USPSA Rule

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise
in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and speed
loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the
competitor’s belt and specifically designed for that purpose. A competitor
may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in
his pockets and retrieve and use them without penalty once having
dropped or exhausted his primary magazines.

edited to add emphasis

This post has been edited by Alan Meek: 29 October 2009 - 10:16 AM

[raz-0]

Well if the stage description said something like all reloads must come form the belt/mag pouches, then yeah it is legit. Failure to follow the written stage procedure.

If not, I can't think of anything off the top of my head. DOn't have the book with me so can't quote chapter and verse.

[ima45dv8]

raz-0, on Oct 29 2009, 01:02 PM, said:

Well if the stage description said something like all reloads must come form the belt/mag pouches, then yeah it is legit. Failure to follow the written stage procedure.

If not, I can't think of anything off the top of my head. DOn't have the book with me so can't quote chapter and verse.

Alan cited the correct rule in post #2 above.

[Nik Habicht]

ima45dv8, on Oct 29 2009, 02:42 PM, said:

raz-0, on Oct 29 2009, 01:02 PM, said:

Well if the stage description said something like all reloads must come form the belt/mag pouches, then yeah it is legit. Failure to follow the written stage procedure.

If not, I can't think of anything off the top of my head. DOn't have the book with me so can't quote chapter and verse.

Alan cited the correct rule in post #2 above.

Sorry Mark, alan didn't cite the correct rule for application of procedural penalties --- those would have to come from Chapter 10. I couldn't find anything in Chapter 10 to support that call, barring language in the WSB requiring mags to come from the belt.....

If the BOD intended that when they re-wrote 5.2.4, they should have added a sub-graph to section 10.2.....

[racerba]

Nik Habicht, on Oct 29 2009, 04:07 PM, said:

If the BOD intended that when they re-wrote 5.2.4, they should have added a sub-graph to section 10.2.....

It's definitely an oversight. However, 5.2.4 does stipulates that it is a penalty to do so. And I would classified it as a procedural penalty since the procedural was not followed according to the rule book. Whatever is not written on the WSB should be covered by the rule book, should it not?

[Flexmoney]

I'm with Nik

[ima45dv8]

Good question.

The second sentence in 5.2.4 (“A competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in his pockets and retrieve and use them without penalty once having dropped or exhausted his primary magazines.“) [emphasis added] tells me that if the magazines are retrieved from pockets and used before the primary supply has been dropped or exhausted, a penalty would apply if the WSB didn’t mandate the magazines be placed elsewhere (on a barrel, on a shelf, in a bucket of fried chicken, etc.). The possibility of requiring the magazines be somewhere other than the belt is covered in the first sentence.

Since the WSB did not specify having the magazines elsewhere, it’s silence on the matter speaks quite loudly that for that CoF the intended position for reloading devices is the competitor’s belt. If a competitor used a magazine from their pocket while still having magazines on their belt, a procedural penalty would apply.

I agree with Bob that it could and maybe should be spelled out in plainer language in section 10.

[Flexmoney]

What rule would you site when applying a procedural? (Section 5 is about equipment, not score or penalties.)


It's not a "procedure". It is more of an equipment requirement/guideline.

There is no documentation on applying a penalty of any sort?

You can't just make one up.

[Singlestack]

Flexmoney, on Oct 29 2009, 05:09 PM, said:

What rule would you site when applying a procedural? (Section 5 is about equipment, not score or penalties.)


It's not a "procedure". It is more of an equipment requirement/guideline.

There is no documentation on applying a penalty of any sort?

You can't just make one up.

Yes they can. They just did.

[Flexmoney]

Singlestack, on Oct 29 2009, 05:26 PM, said:

Yes they can. They just did.

lol...

Well, they haven't quite got there yet. They have to site a reason for a procedural according to 10.1.1, but that same rule won't allow just anything to float.


10.1.1 ...The Range Officer imposing the procedural penalties must clearly record the number of penalties, and the reason why they were imposed, on the competitor’s score sheet.

10.1.1 Procedural penalties are imposed when a competitor fails to comply with procedures specified in a written stage briefing...

[Flexmoney]

Troy has given a similar example from another case, IIRC ? I forget what it is, but I recall that there was no penalty to be applied to the "you gotta".

(I need to run, so no time to look it up now.)

[murkish]

Flexmoney, on Oct 29 2009, 05:08 PM, said:

Singlestack, on Oct 29 2009, 05:26 PM, said:

Yes they can. They just did.

lol...

Well, they haven't quite got there yet. They have to site a reason for a procedural according to 10.1.1, but that same rule won't allow just anything to float.


10.1.1 ...The Range Officer imposing the procedural penalties must clearly record the number of penalties, and the reason why they were imposed, on the competitor’s score sheet.

10.1.1 Procedural penalties are imposed when a competitor fails to comply with procedures specified in a written stage briefing...

I had not noticed before, but if you look at the heading for 10.2 it says:

"10.2 Procedural Penalties – Specific Examples"

It does not state that Procedural Penalties are limited to these examples. Nor does 10.1.1 state that the RO has to identify the reason as denoted in 10.2 for the imposition of the penalty.

If I ask you to give some specific examples of handguns and you stated "Glock, 1911, XD9," would that mean that the list is exhaustive and there are no other handguns?

[ima45dv8]

I'll play a little longer.

Quote

10.1.1 Procedural penalties are imposed when a competitor fails to comply with procedures specified in a written stage briefing...

Since 5.2.4 specifies from where magazines may be retrieved for use during the course of fire, that is in fact a mandated procedure. Not following that procedure by going to a pocket when magazines are on the belt would not follow the procedure specified in 5.2.4. This is a default condition, or procedure, unless specifically waived by the WSB. If not specifically waived by the WSB, it's adherance is specifically required. Violations would earn a procedural penalty.

Quote

10.1.1 ...The Range Officer imposing the procedural penalties must clearly record the number of penalties, and the reason why they were imposed, on the competitor’s score sheet.

That one's pretty easy.
One penalty, unless someone can describe an instance where it is a significant advantage by going to the pocket instead of a mag pouch. Violation of 5.2.4.

Seriously, if there's no penalty for going to the pocket when there's magazines on the belt, why does it state, “A competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in his pockets and retrieve and use them without penalty once having dropped or exhausted his primary magazines.“

[Ray_Z]

If I may cite a rule from common since, "If a new shooter comes to try out Practical Pistol and a whole bunch of people gang up on him for a very minuscule infraction that has nothing to do with safety, in a level 1 match,he probably won't be back."

What a wonderful way to encourage new shooters to come into our sport. You know, the one that you can join where you don't need $4000 worth of equipment just to shoot.

[Flexmoney]

murkish, on Oct 29 2009, 06:26 PM, said:

If I ask you to give some specific examples of handguns and you stated "Glock, 1911, XD9," would that mean that the list is exhaustive and there are no other handguns?

You lost me there?

When do we give out procedurals for what handguns you use?

[ima45dv8]

Ray_Z, on Oct 29 2009, 06:35 PM, said:

If I may cite a rule from common since, "If a new shooter comes to try out Practical Pistol and a whole bunch of people gang up on him for a very minuscule infraction that has nothing to do with safety, in a level 1 match,he probably won't be back."

What a wonderful way to encourage new shooters to come into our sport. You know, the one that you can join where you don't need $4000 worth of equipment just to shoot.

I did see where kmca said it was a level I match, but I didn't see that the shooter in question was a new shooter. If so, I totally agree with your common sense ruling.

If however it was Flex, or Singlestack, or Nik, well, that's a whole different kettle of fish.

[murkish]

Flexmoney, on Oct 29 2009, 05:41 PM, said:

murkish, on Oct 29 2009, 06:26 PM, said:

If I ask you to give some specific examples of handguns and you stated "Glock, 1911, XD9," would that mean that the list is exhaustive and there are no other handguns?

You lost me there?

When do we give out procedurals for what handguns you use?

I am just demonstrating that the word "examples" is illustrative, not exclusive.

[Flexmoney]

ima45dv8, on Oct 29 2009, 06:34 PM, said:

I'll play a little longer.

Quote

10.1.1 Procedural penalties are imposed when a competitor fails to comply with procedures specified in a written stage briefing...

Since 5.2.4 specifies from where magazines may be retrieved for use during the course of fire, that is in fact a mandated procedure. Not following that procedure by going to a pocket when magazines are on the belt would not follow the procedure specified in 5.2.4. This is a default condition, or procedure, unless specifically waived by the WSB. If not specifically waived by the WSB, it's adherance is specifically required. Violations would earn a procedural penalty.

How are you gonna quote the rule then just make stuff up?

"Specified"

in the

"written stage briefing"


That doesn't allow for some well-mean Range Officer to apply "reason". It is specific. It is specified.

[Flexmoney]

murkish, on Oct 29 2009, 06:45 PM, said:

I am just demonstrating that the word "examples" is illustrative, not exclusive.

Right. Yet, not applicable. I believe I quoted the proper rule.

[Nik Habicht]

ima45dv8, on Oct 29 2009, 06:34 PM, said:

I'll play a little longer.

Quote

10.1.1 Procedural penalties are imposed when a competitor fails to comply with procedures specified in a written stage briefing...

Since 5.2.4 specifies from where magazines may be retrieved for use during the course of fire, that is in fact a mandated procedure. Not following that procedure by going to a pocket when magazines are on the belt would not follow the procedure specified in 5.2.4. This is a default condition, or procedure, unless specifically waived by the WSB. If not specifically waived by the WSB, it's adherance is specifically required. Violations would earn a procedural penalty.

Quote

10.1.1 ...The Range Officer imposing the procedural penalties must clearly record the number of penalties, and the reason why they were imposed, on the competitor’s score sheet.

That one's pretty easy.
One penalty, unless someone can describe an instance where it is a significant advantage by going to the pocket instead of a mag pouch. Violation of 5.2.4.

Seriously, if there's no penalty for going to the pocket when there's magazines on the belt, why does it state, “A competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in his pockets and retrieve and use them without penalty once having dropped or exhausted his primary magazines.“

Here's my problem --- if I'm the RM. In the absence of language in chapter 10, telling me how to assess penalties, I'll have a tough time figuring that out. Should it be one penalty? One penalty per mag taken from the pocket? One penalty per mag remaining unused on the belt? I have no way of knowing --- and thus can't comply with 10.1.1.

A quick perusal of the rulebook, finds two instances where penalties may be assigned that are not included in Chapter 10 --- Section 8.6: Assistance or Interference and Section 9.1.1: Approaching Targets. Both of sections provide clear instructions for assessing procedural penalties at the range officer's discretion. That sort of clarity is lacking with respect to 5.2.4....

[Singlestack]

ima45dv8, on Oct 29 2009, 06:42 PM, said:

If however it was Flex, or Singlestack, or Nik, well, that's a whole different kettle of fish.

If your gonna go wacking me with procedurals you better find a rule that supports it. Back dooring your way to 10.1.1 ain't gonna cut it. I prefer the plain front door method.

Are you gonna try to impose a per shot fired?

[ima45dv8]

Flexmoney, on Oct 29 2009, 06:47 PM, said:

How are you gonna quote the rule then just make stuff up?

"Specified"

in the

"written stage briefing"


That doesn't allow for some well-mean Range Officer to apply "reason". It is specific. It is specified.

I didn't make up a single thing. Read it again if needed:

Quote

"During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor’s belt and specifically designed for that purpose."

"Shall" isn't a suggestion.

Quote

"A competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in his pockets and retrieve and use them without penalty once having dropped or exhausted his primary magazines."

Saying you can only use the pocketed mags after the primaries are dropped or exhausted is likewise very clear.

Procedurally, you are required to use the primary mags on your belt first. Not doing so is only allowed without penalty if the WSB states otherwise. Barring that, 5.2.4 is the binding requirement.

Lookit, I think it could be worded better, at least with respect to section 10 not including it as an example. But the instances listed in section 10 are examples and no where does it state that list is all-inclusive. If it is, that should be added.

[ima45dv8]

Singlestack, on Oct 29 2009, 06:52 PM, said:

ima45dv8, on Oct 29 2009, 06:42 PM, said:

If however it was Flex, or Singlestack, or Nik, well, that's a whole different kettle of fish.

Are you gonna try to impose a per shot fired?

Heavens, no! Like I already said, I can't imagine a scenario where going to the pocket instead of a mag pouch would be a significant advantage.

[Singlestack]

ima45dv8, on Oct 29 2009, 07:00 PM, said:

Flexmoney, on Oct 29 2009, 06:47 PM, said:

How are you gonna quote the rule then just make stuff up?

"Specified"

in the

"written stage briefing"


That doesn't allow for some well-mean Range Officer to apply "reason". It is specific. It is specified.

I didn't make up a single thing. Read it again if needed:

Quote

"During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor’s belt and specifically designed for that purpose."

"Shall" isn't a suggestion.

Quote

"A competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in his pockets and retrieve and use them without penalty once having dropped or exhausted his primary magazines."

Saying you can only use the pocketed mags after the primaries are dropped or exhausted is likewise very clear.

Procedurally, you are required to use the primary mags on your belt first. Not doing so is only allowed without penalty if the WSB states otherwise. Barring that, 5.2.4 is the binding requirement.

Lookit, I think it could be worded better, at least with respect to section 10 not including it as an example. But the instances listed in section 10 are examples and no where does it state that list is all-inclusive. If it is, that should be added.

So what is the correct penalty then? Per shot fired? Per mag used? Per mags remaining on belt?