[kellyn]

Here is the place to comment on the new development of major power factor rifles in USPSA Multigun and (eventually) IPSC Rifle.

I have seen the Gremlin (the nickname of the AMU's new toy) and expect that it will become a major player in matches that recognize power factors. But boy will it be expensive to run one!

So I ask those that were there, has the Army ruined USPSA Multigun?

[ken hebert]

Well, I for one wouldnt mind it if you could give us some background on the Gremlin...


After the speculation of Daniel H using a major pf round at MG nats I've been playing around with 6.5Grendel load info here at home tonight, trying to balance velocity, bullet weight, and barrel length into a usable rifle system... and still be affordable since I dont have good ole Uncle Sugar footing my ammo bill.

This post has been edited by ken hebert: 27 October 2009 - 08:15 PM

[Religious Shooter]

Naah.

Daniel H would have kicked everybody's butt if he had used a .223.

[bigbrowndog]

Kel, i had heard of the toy a few months back and given the budget required to run and feed the thing. I think it will only be a passing fancy, unless you have the unlimited budget of the AMU, AND shoot alot of USPSA/IPSC matches. i know that originally they were looking hard at the Grendel and it did not work out.

Trapr

[tgibson]

I just don't see it happening. You might get scored major, but think about the mag capacity. I can tell you for a fact Daniel and Robby werent running NC P mag extensions!! There are a lot of hurdles to overcome before people start shooting major rifles in USPSA matches. Not like there are a ton of them to shoot anyway.
Adios,
TG

[Flexmoney]

What happened to all the talk of 223 having better handling, recoil, capacity (etc.), offsetting any difference in Minor?

No?

[Flexmoney]

bigbrowndog, on Oct 27 2009, 11:38 PM, said:

i know that originally they were looking hard at the Grendel and it did not work out.

What held the Grendel (6.5mm?) back? Making Power Factor?

[kellyn]

Flexmoney, on Oct 27 2009, 09:30 PM, said:

What happened to all the talk of 223 having better handling, recoil, capacity (etc.), offsetting any difference in Minor?

No?

Maybe.

It is my understanding that the Gremlin can be shot at a near .223 cadence. For example, I shoot a .308 at about 80-85% of my .223 cadence. According to its master, The Gremlin is capable being shot at a 95%ish of a .223 cadence. Plus you get 4 points for a C instead of 3. So in paper heavy matches this will be factor. Something for us IPSC rifle shooters to fret over.

My limited experience with major power factor was with a .260 and I did quite well with it but abandoned it due to 1) cost and 2) the increased use of steel targets where pf don't matter. Of course I was shooting a FAL which in .260 just brutalized the brass making it a one brass equals one shot deal. The Gremlin in a AR is a lot more gentle.

I think the Gremlin can be had with 27 round mags not great but good enough for most stages.

As for handling, the Gremlin handles just about like a .223. Not too much extra weight on the version I played with.

[kimel]

The AMU guys had 40 round Gremlin mags. They were god awful long but they had them. Looked to be standard mags with very long aluminum extensions (which were polished BRIGHT).

Watching them shoot their cadence seemed to be right with the .223 shooters.

[P.Pres]

Could someone please explain what were the "AP" "additional penalties"
and as stated on the other thread, how were the Major PF guys able to avoid
them ??

[gose]

7.62x39 can be loaded to major, and wolf even has factory ammo that would make major out of a 20"-ish barrel.
There are AR uppers chambered in 7.62x39
There are cheap 30 round mags available
Components are (relatively) cheap

Yet you never see them in matches (at least not in the US), so no, I dont think the Gremlin will change much/anything.

Some people might start to play around with it now, but I'm pretty sure that Daniel would have won the Nationals pretty comfortable even shooting a .308....

This post has been edited by gose: 27 October 2009 - 11:26 PM

[Chris Conley]

Did anyone pick up Daniels 6.5 brass??? PM me for my address, I need some in a bad way. On a serious note.... Finding 1) Factory ammo, 2) the right grain .264 bullets to load, 3) brass, is a real PITA right now. One thing that I have learned about the 6.5 Grendel is it's very particular about what you feed it as far as accuracy goes.

I sure would like to shoot mine at a 3 gun match someday. I'd have to take out a load to do it.

Chris C.

ETA: Now I have figured out where all the 6.5 loading stuff went to. AMU...

This post has been edited by Chris Conley: 28 October 2009 - 12:14 AM

[Cigar Guy]

Chris Conley, on Oct 28 2009, 02:02 AM, said:

Did anyone pick up Daniels 6.5 brass??? PM me for my address, I need some in a bad way. On a serious note.... Finding 1) Factory ammo, 2) the right grain .264 bullets to load, 3) brass, is a real PITA right now. One thing that I have learned about the 6.5 Grendel is it's very particular about what you feed it as far as accuracy goes.

I sure would like to shoot mine at a 3 gun match someday. I'd have to take out a load to do it.

Chris C.

ETA: Now I have figured out where all the 6.5 loading stuff went to. AMU...

The brass at the Nationals and most Area matches is donated to the ROs running the stage. I saved one piece of the brass, but it is 6.5 Grendel necked up to .30 cal, running a 125 gr bullet. I didn't ask the particular load, but Daniel or Robby would probably give you more information if you asked directly.

[Joe4d]

close paper targets are easier to hit 2A's = no advantage to major.
far paper takes too long to score so is rarely used = rare advantage to major.
steel is either hit or miss= no advantage to major


Over all with several differnt Multi and 3 gun games 223 will dominate especially if you throw price into the equation.

[kurtm]

Um I am no USPSA rule guy, but doesn't there have to be like 500 of them to be legal in any division except open? or is that just a pistol thing. KurtM

[Flexmoney]

kurtm, on Oct 28 2009, 07:27 AM, said:

Um I am no USPSA rule guy, but doesn't there have to be like 500 of them to be legal in any division except open? or is that just a pistol thing. KurtM

Hmmmm...good question.

I just took a look...still don't know.

Yes, there has to be 500. But, I can't tell if that includes caliber, let alone a specific round.

Clearly there have been 500+ AR's...so the model is good.

I would guess there have easily been 500+ 30 caliber AR's.

Probably not 500 in "Gremlin". (Probably not that many FAL's in 260 for that matter.???)

[Flexmoney]

P.Pres, on Oct 28 2009, 01:46 AM, said:

Could someone please explain what were the "AP" "additional penalties"
and as stated on the other thread, how were the Major PF guys able to avoid
them ??

Yeah...those are just used to make the scoring program/software work.

It accounts for the fact that some of the shooter's 3 guns are shooting Major and some are shooting Minor. The computer program can't tell the difference. But, as you know, any non-Alpha hit in minor is worth one less point than the same non-Alpha hit in Major.

So, the stats officer scores everybody as Major...then, plugs those extra points down (in minor) into the "additional penalties" box when they put the scores in.

That apparently shows up when you look at the results closely...so somebody mentioned it...and reasoned out that DH was shooting Major with his rifle.

[Jack T]

One aspect to look at and it has probably already been addressed by the AMU since I am sure they did not foot the bill for the mods and ammo just for their personal use. Their budget is not that great.

That aspect is the possible adoption as a replacement for the 5.56.

The 6.8 SPC never met the minimum velocity requirements and really doesn't deserve the attention it got.

The AMU was the final independent deciding factor in the decision not to further develope the 6.8 SPC for Military utilization.

Perhaps the "Gremlin" may be the answer.

What is the velocity of the 125 grain bullet?

Jack

This post has been edited by Jack T: 28 October 2009 - 06:13 AM

[cold]

Jack T, on Oct 28 2009, 05:46 AM, said:

One aspect to look at and it has probably already been addressed by the AMU since I am sure they did not foot the bill for the mods and ammo just for their personal use. Their budget is not that great.

That aspect is the possible adoption as a replacement for the 5.56.

The 6.68 SPC never met the minimum velocity requirements and really doesn't deserve the attention it got.

The AMU was the final independent deciding factor in the decision not to further develope the 6.68 SPC for Military utilization.



Jack

First, it is the 6.8 SPC aka the 6.8x43 mm. Not 6.68 SPC.

Second, the 6.8 can make major out of an 18" barrel 1:12 or 1:11 twist and 115 or 120 grain pills. But the 130 speer does it easiest, 29.5-30gr H335 should get you over the 2461fps needed to make major. I know of several gents who hit 2520 with a 18" WOA about 4 years ago. I called Art of Silver State Armory and he is looking into loading some for me at this time to play around with in a Noveske 18" 6.8 barrel.

As an aside, a new SAAMI spec for the 6.8 SPC, is rumored to be released around/durring or after the SHOT SHOW 2010 in Vegas. This might play a part into some of the loading aspects of the ctg with respect to safety concerns etc.

Third, the 6.8 case necked up to 30 call, dubbed the 30 Herrett Rimless Tactical (30 HRT) can make major last I knew, but I was also told such loadings were in the "danger zone" back in 2006-2007, again this may have changed. I have a call into Marty TerWeeme of Teppo Jutsu after talking to a buddy on the phone about this venture yesterday. Marty is well known in all things wildcat in the AR platform. For those who dont know www.teppojutsu.com and www.tromix.com are the places to look for more info. ALSO, www.ar15barrels.com info on the 30 HRT

http://ar15barrels.c...rod/30hrt.shtml

Randall R does good work just gets behind sometimes.


I dont reload so I cannot speak to these things from direct experience, I just have a wee bit of background in the 6.8 SPC is all.

This post has been edited by cold: 28 October 2009 - 06:10 AM

[Jack T]

cold, on Oct 28 2009, 03:03 PM, said:

Jack T, on Oct 28 2009, 05:46 AM, said:

One aspect to look at and it has probably already been addressed by the AMU since I am sure they did not foot the bill for the mods and ammo just for their personal use. Their budget is not that great.

That aspect is the possible adoption as a replacement for the 5.56.

The 6.68 SPC never met the minimum velocity requirements and really doesn't deserve the attention it got.

The AMU was the final independent deciding factor in the decision not to further develope the 6.68 SPC for Military utilization.



Jack

First, it is the 6.8 SPC aka the 6.8x43 mm. Not 6.68 SPC.

Second, the 6.8 can make major out of an 18" barrel 1:12 or 1:11 twist and 115 or 120 grain pills. But the 130 speer does it easiest, 29.5-30gr H335 should get you over the 2461fps needed to make major. I know of several gents who hit 2520 with a 18" WOA about 4 years ago. I called Art of Silver State Armory and he is looking into loading some for me at this time to play around with in a Noveske 18" 6.8 barrel.

As an aside, a new SAAMI spec for the 6.8 SPC, is rumored to be released around/durring or after the SHOT SHOW 2010 in Vegas. This might play a part into some of the loading aspects of the ctg with respect to safety concerns etc.

Third, the 6.8 case necked up to 30 call, dubbed the 30 Herrett Rimless Tactical (30 HRT) can make major last I knew, but I was also told such loadings were in the "danger zone" back in 2006-2007, again this may have changed. I have a call into Marty TerWeeme of Teppo Jutsu after talking to a buddy on the phone about this venture yesterday. Marty is well known in all things wildcat in the AR platform. For those who dont know www.teppojutsu.com and www.tromix.com are the places to look for more info. ALSO, www.ar15barrels.com info on the 30 HRT

http://ar15barrels.c...rod/30hrt.shtml

Randall R does good work just gets behind sometimes.


I dont reload so I cannot speak to these things from direct experience, I just have a wee bit of background in the 6.8 SPC is all.

Sorry, I made the correction, meant 6.8SPC but typed 6.68, excuse me, had too many 6's in my head. The minimum velocity required at that time was 3000 fps by the powers to be at McDill (CENTCOM). You have to know where it all began to understand why it was never taken seriously in the Spec Ops Community.

Jack

[Bryan 45]

Based on the early info from Remington, I thought the .30 Remington AR would have gained some interest in the 3 gun world, but I just looked at Remington's website and the ballistics listed for it now are even less impressive than the 7.62x39. What happened with that? It was suppose to be a 125g at about 2800, but now they show a 125g @ 2200fps.

This post has been edited by Bryan 45: 28 October 2009 - 06:52 AM

[Bear1142]

Quote

What is the velocity of the 125 grain bullet?

If I remember correctly from the chrono, they were running around 2,625 fps.

Erik

[00bullitt]

Daniel and Robby told me at A6 they are running the 125 Nosler Ballistic Tip to about 2625 in the necked up Lapua 6.5 Grendel case. They had also said they were trying some experimental powders not available off the shelf.
Here is a pic of a round Robby gave me at A6 on the right and one of my 6.5 rounds with a 129grain bullet on the left.

Attached File(s)

•  DSC_0016.JPG (381.18K)
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[M ammo]

All of this is GREAT! Pushing the envelope and doing something new!
This is where innovation happens. And gets out into the public eye.
We all know these cartridges have been out there.
Are they better? Better for 3 Gun? Better for the ARMY Combat Solders? But for some reason
they have not caught on.
The one thing that holds me back from 6. POINT//// Something …….is Cost and availability.
I can find .223 anything,,, everywhere.
The more exposure the 6. POINT//// something gets = more brass on the ground, more bullets on the market. And people like me,,, making the change over to it.

Jim M ammo

[Bryan 45]

I don't know Jim. 6.5x55 has been around for 113 years now, and it's still not very common. But, it's still my favorite whitetail cartridge.