[MoNsTeR]

Situation: RO calls up the next shooter. Shooter arrives at the start position. RO says "Make Ready." Shooter loads and holsters. Next thing you know some other shooter appears downrange from behind a wall having just finished taping targets. No one gets shot, thank the powers that be, but nerves are definitely juiced.

The following are obvious lessons:
- partially transparent walls (orange netting, etc.) are A Good Thing
- paying attention in general is A Good Thing
- the RO should check downrange before issuing Make Ready
- the shooter should probably check downrange too just for good measure

With all that said, the question is, are any penalties applied to anyone? I have searched the rules forum and perused the rule book and can't find anything that seems like it would apply, but it's one of those situations that just feels wrong.

[Fireant]

No penalties, but a pants change might be in order. I have been on both ends of that senario before and it is not fun. When I RO I make sure I can see behind all walls or I'm the last person to go back uprange so I know it is clear.

[NickJ]

The RO did check downrange, obviously not carefully enough.

[NoSteel]

Wow, that's scary to even think about. I'm sure the RO was really questioning him/herself after that. Was this a large squad??? Large field course??? Almost makes you want a wall with tags on it. If your tag is not in place, your not accounted for. We run what are probably on average squads of 8-10, fairly easy to keep track of everyone. . I've seen RO's take a walk around before setting up the next shooter. May be a good practice for the RO to stay downrange during / after scoring until it is all clear. Not being an RO not sure what the best procedure would be but I shure would not want to end up in that kind of situation.

This post has been edited by NoSteel: 22 October 2009 - 04:46 PM

[Steve J]

I had that happen to me. After I had cleared a stage with a permanent shoot house and made sure all of my squad was out, I was about to load the next shooter when some joker from another squad came be-boppin' out. He slipped in to get an advance peak as I was exiting the other side of a solid wall. I was pissed.

This post has been edited by Steve J: 22 October 2009 - 04:49 PM

[SA Friday]

No matter how hard you try, sooner or later if you RO enough, this is going to happen.

[boz1911]

SA Friday, on Oct 22 2009, 04:56 PM, said:

No matter how hard you try, sooner or later if you RO enough, this is going to happen.

Yup, and the response when the someone downrange hears "Make Ready" will be pretty quick and very loud. It can happen on a simple stage as well as one with tons of barricades / walls, etc.

[Albert]

To avoid this possible situation I try to check if everyone is back by counting everyone that is uprange as well as calling out loudly "going hot" before I load up the next shooter.

This post has been edited by Albert: 22 October 2009 - 05:06 PM

[rgkeller]

Every place I have ROd, we call the range "HOT" in a loud voice before the shooter takes his position.

[CSEMARTIN]

I've seen this happen. http://www.brianenos...?...19&hl=range

I don't spend a lot of time downrange when it's paste time. I also make sure I'm paying attention to what is going on uprange.

When I'm getting ready to shoot, I like to make sure the range is clear. I usually go downrange and make sure all the holes in the no shoots are pasted and then make sure I'm the last guy back to the line. I've never gone hot with someone downrange.

The stages that bother me are ones which do not allow the shooter to see downrange before the start such as blind houses or stages where an SO goes downrange (after your are hot and facing uprange) to label targets with a playing card, a colored poker chip or a knife/gun cutout for tac sequence purposes.

[Lee King]

Steve J, on Oct 22 2009, 07:49 PM, said:

I had that happen to me. After I had cleared a stage with a permanent shoot house and made sure all of my squad was out, I was about to load the next shooter when some joker from another squad came be-boppin' out. He slipped in to get an advance peak as I was exiting the other side of a solid wall. I was pissed.

I saw a dude from the next squad wander up behind a friend at a 3 gun match. There were rifle targets to the R and L right on the 180 (which was floating anyway) off in the woods. The shooter was engaging the R targets. The RO was standing behind watching for hits. The next set of targets was back to the L pretty much where the RO was. If you hadn't had a walk through yet you didn't know they were there. The RO had been watching the shots and as the shooter pivoted back around, scooting with them so he wasn't in the way. Guess where the guy from the next squad stood. Directly in line with the shooter and the targets to the L.

Because of these situations I really wish there was a rule and/or penalty for guys sneaking up on another squad like this.

[open17]

Lee King, on Oct 22 2009, 05:35 PM, said:

[
Because of these situations I really wish there was a rule and/or penalty for guys sneaking up on another squad like this.

8.7.3 No person is permitted to enter or move through a course of fire without
the prior approval of a Range Officer assigned to that course of fire
or the Range Master


10.6.2 Other persons may be expelled from the range for conduct which a
Range Officer deems to be unacceptable. Examples of unacceptable
conduct include, but are not limited to, failing to comply with the reasonable
directions of a Match Official, interference with the operation
of a course of fire and/or a competitor’s attempt thereof, and any other
behaviour likely to bring the sport into disrepute.

Around here, if the stage has opaque walls or props that could hide a person, a hearty "GOIN' HOT" just before
the make ready command is pretty common.

[Nik Habicht]

I've been on both sides of that situation --- I once gave the LAMR command as a brand-new RO while I still had someone downrange, and I've had it given to me as a competitor at an Area Match or Sectional. Since then, I check the stage --- both as shooter and RO. At some major matches where that's not possible --- for me to check the stage for clear as a competitor --- I still look for all of my squad members from the start position and ask the RO to check for all members of his crew....

[Shootingirons45]

As a person that's been on both ends of the muzzle what I've learned to do on any stage that has walls is to designate one person to insure that the range is in fact clear. It really doesn't slow us up and it is anoher set of eyes.

[Neomet]

One more for the loud "Going hot!" followed by another look around. I've been down at the far end squatted down picking up the shooter's brass when the RO yelled that. You better believe I made a lot of noise as I moved quickly into the open.

[whatmeworry]

If I am ROing a stage with walls I will walk the stage before I bring the next shooter up. I do this for two reasons...the first is obvious given this thread. The second is just to give a quick look see that everything is set and taped. Doing it this way I try to avoid those scary situations.
Adios,
Pat

[coldchar]

Won't pretend I never had a shooter down range when I said the range is going hot and make ready. However, that is why I try to discipline myself to be the last one back, besides gives me a chance to check the targets are patched.

It is scary- we hold their lives in our hands.

[CSEMARTIN]

Checking to see if your squad is uprange is a great idea, but it doesn't solve the problem of someone from another squad coming over to check out the stage.

I've been to a lot of matches where the guy holding the clip board or timer is the last one off the range before the next LAMR. That makes about the best sense to me. Plus, when pasting targets it makes more sense to start with the targets furthest downrange. Doing it the other way around might leave you in a bad spot.

[ebg3]

At one time wouldn't the competitor on the line be given a DQ for loading and making ready while someone was downrange?

[NickJ]

ebg3, on Oct 23 2009, 05:38 AM, said:

At one time wouldn't the competitor on the line be given a DQ for loading and making ready while someone was downrange?

No. The shooter was under the supervision of, and acting in response to a direct command issued by the RO.

The finger only points in one direction here. It doesn't matter that no one else saw the person downrange, the responsibility lies wholly on the RO.

[JFlowers]

Been there. I was behind a wall when I heard the Make Ready. My solution, jump up and down and yell real loud!

[moverfive]

JFlowers, on Oct 23 2009, 08:44 AM, said:

Been there. I was behind a wall when I heard the Make Ready. My solution, jump up and down and yell real loud!

....and depending on who will be shooting, make like a brown target as quick as possible.

[Precision40]

When I RO a stage that has multiple walls/hiding positions, I scan every inch of the stage to ensure I am the last one to come back from being downrange before starting the next shooter. 99 times out of 100, everyone looks out for each other, but it happens sometimes, especially on complicated stages.

As an RO, it's ultimately your responsibility...

[LPatterson]

I concur that the RO being the last one off the stage should be the goal but at some point in time someone will get missed and that is the RO's worst nightmare. This is amplified by the number of walls people can get behind and even when scoring from back to front and going to the back to check targets, people can mystically appear after you scan an area. Since the rulebook does not support anything other than authorized range commands other than selected warnings, yelling "going Hot" would be discouraged as confusing to some shooters.

I don't see that any one answer will solve this problem other than better situational awareness and not overworking the RO.

[coldchar]

LPatterson, on Oct 23 2009, 12:56 PM, said:

I concur that the RO being the last one off the stage should be the goal but at some point in time someone will get missed and that is the RO's worst nightmare. This is amplified by the number of walls people can get behind and even when scoring from back to front and going to the back to check targets, people can mystically appear after you scan an area. Since the rulebook does not support anything other than authorized range commands other than selected warnings, yelling "going Hot" would be discouraged as confusing to some shooters.

I don't see that any one answer will solve this problem other than better situational awareness and not overworking the RO.

George would disagree on the going hot statement. I have never seen anyone look the slightest bit confused on using it and it acts as a heads up to all.