[joecichlid]

I did notice on the first draw my right shoulder comes up quite a ways to get the gun out of the holster, need to lower holster a bit if possible. On a few of the runs I noticed that I was breaking the first shot and moving my gun to the left before breaking the second shot, A/C or A/D anyone? Also noticed a few bobbled mag changes. All things I need to work on but would love to hear if I missed anything on these clips. Anyway here is the clip: My draws in slow speed, please ignore the horrid sound. Originally shot at 30 frames a second and slowed down to about 1/16th speed.

Joe W.

[mlmiller1]

Joe,
I'm no expert but I did stay at a ...............ah, never mind. It looks like you are dropping your head quite a bit as you present your pistol at the end of the draw. If you can't get your gun up high enough to not need to drop your head, drop your head before the buzzer goes off. Matt Burkett says that changes your sight picture when you move your head after the buzzer, which requires refocusing your eyes or whatever. You may be able to get away with it a little more shooting a dot than irons but it still slows you down. Another thing, it looks like when you grab a mag, you are just grabbing it by the base & hoping for the best. If you can use your index finger & run it up the front of the mag, it will help you index the mag & guide it into the gun making a more reliable, consistent reload. Being a big guy, you probably have been using your strength of grip to maneuver the mags into the gun & getting away with it but your consistency will increase if you use that index finger as a guide.

As a side note, you looked pretty smooth & your head was snapping to the next targets well.

I think when you work out the drop head thing, you are gonna be pretty tough to keep up with! How is your movement from position to position? The Matt Burkett tapes are awesome for helping with anyone's shooting, I highly recommend you buy/borrow them.

MLM

[Pat Harrison]

To be honest the draw is not the biggest problem here. It will smooth out in time, you can already see the issues and are working on them.
On most strings you are already looking away from the first target before firing the second shot, on a couple you can clearly see your head moving, the gun following and then the shot...I also saw at least one awful early shot coming onto T2.
Your reloads need some work, try to keep the gun up a bit more and after the last shot is called, look to the magwell, I saw at least one run where you looked back to T1, then the magwell. On the reload you really straighten up out of your stance, perform the reload then get back down. You need to be stationary through this process just like on the draw.
I might have missed some things though, I was trying to see the blonde behind you

[Duane Thomas]

As has been previously noted, you have an awful lot of body movement both during the draw and the load. Watch the position of your head and shoulders in the video and how much they move around. Really you should be seeing very little movement there. Instead, what you're doing is to start the draw standing pretty much bolt upright, then you lower your head and shoulders into your shooting stance on the draw, then stand back up during the load, then back down again after the load. Don't do that.

Also it looks to me like you're actually leaning your upper body backward during the draw, and shooting with your body weight to the rear. Don't do that, either. Commit your body weight forward but keep your head up, face flat to the target. Raise the gun to your eyes and head which remain immobile, don't lower your eyes to the gun. To lower your head and eyes while raising the gun adds another vector into aligning the eyes, sights and target - now instead of just having the sights coming up, you also have your eyes coming down, and there is a very real tendency for the two to crisscross instead of both coming to the same point at the same time.

To determine the body position you want to have before the draw, and maintain during the draw, during firing, during the load and after, in dry fire begin by getting into your shooting stance, then, without moving anything but your arms, holster the gun. Leave you head, your torso, your weight distribution, all the same, nothing moves. Then draw, also with nothing moving but your arms bringing the gun up to your eyes. Practice isolating your head and upper body during the draw and load. Really nothing should move but the arms, everything else is very still.

It looks to me like you're actually bringing the gun in toward your body, then extending it out again to fire, during the transition. While this is a valid technique for very large transitions, it's not necessary for the amount of transition you're doing in the video, it just adds a lot of unnecessary movement.

The load could use some serious work. You're dropping the gun way too low, and not even looking at the mag well during the load at all, instead you're still staring at the targets. On your first load you actually miss the mag well the first time and it take two tries to hit the hole. On your second run through you miss the mag in the pouch and it takes two tries to grab that.

Your grip on the magazine while bringing it up to the mag well is what we call "monkey fisting" where you just grab the bottom of the magazine in a fist. This gives you very little directional control of the magazine. Instead, grab the magazine with the index finger straight along the front of the mag tube, ideally with the tip of the index finger even with the tip of the top cartridge in the magazine, and just use your finger to point the magazine straight into the well.

Keep the gun high, up in the facebox. There are two basic approaches on how to align the mag and mag well during a load. One is to move the gun as little as possible and bring the mag to where the gun is. The other is to move the gun to where the magazine naturally wants to go. I prefer the latter. If you want to know where you should move the gun during the load, get in your shooting stance but with both hands hanging at your sides with your eyes closed, then draw the mag and put it right in front of your face at whatever angle it wants to be. Open your eyes, see how the magazine is oriented. Then, without moving the magazine, draw your gun, put the mag well right in line with the top of the mag, angled exactly the same. Memorize the angle and placement of the gun. During the load, as your hand goes for the spare mag, instantly move the gun to that spot, at that angle. As you bring the magazine up you'll find it goes right into the well.

Of course we still look at the mag well during the load (something you can't do with it down as low as you have it in your video). A lot of people put a dot of nail polish or paint inside the mag well so they can look right at it during the load. It helps.

[bkeeler]

It is hard to tell from the video but check your holster position. Looks to be a little to far forward (in front of you) when you are index on the first target it looks like the gun is pointed to the left of the target when it is holstered which is not giving you a straight path to the target. Look Here for more info on the holster position in video 2 mainly.


BK

[JThompson]

Weak hand is slow getting to the chest and therefore to the gun... That weak hand should move just as fast as the strong one.

JT

[NoSteel]

I'm not at a skill level to critque your movement but I will comment on your R.O. I've never seen an R.O. stand behind a shooter in such a way where the handgun cannot be seen. During your reloads he's not even in a position where he can tell if your finger is in the trigger guard. I would think indoors an AD would be a big concern so that would be a critical thing to watch. Was this a match or just set up for filming towards improvement?? Just struck me as odd, thats all.

[joecichlid]

mlmiller1, on Oct 21 2009, 06:27 AM, said:

Joe,
I'm no expert but I did stay at a ...............ah, never mind. It looks like you are dropping your head quite a bit as you present your pistol at the end of the draw. If you can't get your gun up high enough to not need to drop your head, drop your head before the buzzer goes off. Matt Burkett says that changes your sight picture when you move your head after the buzzer, which requires refocusing your eyes or whatever. You may be able to get away with it a little more shooting a dot than irons but it still slows you down. Another thing, it looks like when you grab a mag, you are just grabbing it by the base & hoping for the best. If you can use your index finger & run it up the front of the mag, it will help you index the mag & guide it into the gun making a more reliable, consistent reload. Being a big guy, you probably have been using your strength of grip to maneuver the mags into the gun & getting away with it but your consistency will increase if you use that index finger as a guide.

As a side note, you looked pretty smooth & your head was snapping to the next targets well.

I think when you work out the drop head thing, you are gonna be pretty tough to keep up with! How is your movement from position to position? The Matt Burkett tapes are awesome for helping with anyone's shooting, I highly recommend you buy/borrow them.

MLM

Thanks for the pointer. I have the Burkett videos, guess I need to get them back out. You are spot on, I see my head dipping as well and that is one of the things I need to work on. Get the head down or get the gun up, just have to figure out what works for me. Now that you point it out I see what you mean about the mags. When I dry fire or practice I get the mag with my finger along the front of the mag but it looks like when I have a clock on me I grab what I can get. Oddly though I rarely bobble my mag changes during a match (but boy did I dork it up on that second run, first one wasn't pretty either) but then again with 29+1 I rarely need them. Another thing I need to work on. Thank you for taking the time to help me out with a review of the video. *added to the list of things I need to work on*

Pat Harrison, on Oct 21 2009, 07:38 AM, said:

To be honest the draw is not the biggest problem here. It will smooth out in time, you can already see the issues and are working on them.
On most strings you are already looking away from the first target before firing the second shot, on a couple you can clearly see your head moving, the gun following and then the shot...I also saw at least one awful early shot coming onto T2.
Your reloads need some work, try to keep the gun up a bit more and after the last shot is called, look to the magwell, I saw at least one run where you looked back to T1, then the magwell. On the reload you really straighten up out of your stance, perform the reload then get back down. You need to be stationary through this process just like on the draw.
I might have missed some things though, I was trying to see the blonde behind you

I have been telling myself it would smooth out over time but I have been saying that for about six years. lol I had noticed my head moving before or just as the shot breaks, another thing I need to work on. You have helped me see that I really do have a problem keeping the gun up in my face box area where it needs to be during mag changes and keep my body where it needs to be instead of moving up and down during the mag change. Looks like I need some more dry fire practice this weekend. By the way that one shot you noticed as a little early was a D hit on the right side of the target. Just a touch early but still on paper.

Duane Thomas, on Oct 21 2009, 09:17 AM, said:

As has been previously noted, you have an awful lot of body movement both during the draw and the load. Watch the position of your head and shoulders in the video and how much they move around. Really you should be seeing very little movement there. Instead, what you're doing is to start the draw standing pretty much bolt upright, then you lower your head and shoulders into your shooting stance on the draw, then stand back up during the load, then back down again after the load. Don't do that.

Also it looks to me like you're actually leaning your upper body backward during the draw, and shooting with your body weight to the rear. Don't do that, either. Commit your body weight forward but keep your head up, face flat to the target. Raise the gun to your eyes and head which remain immobile, don't lower your eyes to the gun. To lower your head and eyes while raising the gun adds another vector into aligning the eyes, sights and target - now instead of just having the sights coming up, you also have your eyes coming down, and there is a very real tendency for the two to crisscross instead of both coming to the same point at the same time.

To determine the body position you want to have before the draw, and maintain during the draw, during firing, during the load and after, in dry fire begin by getting into your shooting stance, then, without moving anything but your arms, holster the gun. Leave you head, your torso, your weight distribution, all the same, nothing moves. Then draw, also with nothing moving but your arms bringing the gun up to your eyes. Practice isolating your head and upper body during the draw and load. Really nothing should move but the arms, everything else is very still.

It looks to me like you're actually bringing the gun in toward your body, then extending it out again to fire, during the transition. While this is a valid technique for very large transitions, it's not necessary for the amount of transition you're doing in the video, it just adds a lot of unnecessary movement.

The load could use some serious work. You're dropping the gun way too low, and not even looking at the mag well during the load at all, instead you're still staring at the targets. On your first load you actually miss the mag well the first time and it take two tries to hit the hole. On your second run through you miss the mag in the pouch and it takes two tries to grab that.

Your grip on the magazine while bringing it up to the mag well is what we call "monkey fisting" where you just grab the bottom of the magazine in a fist. This gives you very little directional control of the magazine. Instead, grab the magazine with the index finger straight along the front of the mag tube, ideally with the tip of the index finger even with the tip of the top cartridge in the magazine, and just use your finger to point the magazine straight into the well.

Keep the gun high, up in the facebox. There are two basic approaches on how to align the mag and mag well during a load. One is to move the gun as little as possible and bring the mag to where the gun is. The other is to move the gun to where the magazine naturally wants to go. I prefer the latter. If you want to know where you should move the gun during the load, get in your shooting stance but with both hands hanging at your sides with your eyes closed, then draw the mag and put it right in front of your face at whatever angle it wants to be. Open your eyes, see how the magazine is oriented. Then, without moving the magazine, draw your gun, put the mag well right in line with the top of the mag, angled exactly the same. Memorize the angle and placement of the gun. During the load, as your hand goes for the spare mag, instantly move the gun to that spot, at that angle. As you bring the magazine up you'll find it goes right into the well.

Of course we still look at the mag well during the load (something you can't do with it down as low as you have it in your video). A lot of people put a dot of nail polish or paint inside the mag well so they can look right at it during the load. It helps.

WOW!! Thanks for helping with the tips, it looks like there will be lots of dry fire practice in my future. The more and more I look at the video in slow speed I see more and more stuff that needs working on but it really helps having a few extra sets of eyes to look as well. I see a lot of draws and mag changes in my future.

bkeeler, on Oct 21 2009, 10:02 AM, said:

It is hard to tell from the video but check your holster position. Looks to be a little to far forward (in front of you) when you are index on the first target it looks like the gun is pointed to the left of the target when it is holstered which is not giving you a straight path to the target. Look Here for more info on the holster position in video 2 mainly.

BK

I have moved my holster around a little over the last few months and the location it was in during the video feels right to me although it needs to be lower. From a surrender draw my hand just clears the grip safety and hits the gun where it needs to be (for me). In the holster the gun is just slightly turned in to the left but I think I will play with that some. A little limited on adjustment with the version I am running, the 2000 model which is the one just before the WSM which is very adjustable. I came across those videos a few months back and they helped me get to where the holster is now but it does need some fine tuning as you pointed out. As I said above, it is very helpful to have a few extra sets of eyes looking things over for me. Thank you very much for the help.

JThompson, on Oct 21 2009, 10:14 AM, said:

Weak hand is slow getting to the chest and therefore to the gun... That weak hand should move just as fast as the strong one.

JT

You are spot on, I need to get that ham of mine moving faster and into the right position as quickly as possible.

NoSteel, on Oct 21 2009, 11:23 AM, said:

I'm not at a skill level to critque your movement but I will comment on your R.O. I've never seen an R.O. stand behind a shooter in such a way where the handgun cannot be seen. During your reloads he's not even in a position where he can tell if your finger is in the trigger guard. I would think indoors an AD would be a big concern so that would be a critical thing to watch. Was this a match or just set up for filming towards improvement?? Just struck me as odd, thats all.

Yeah, the RO can use some pointers as to where he should be standing. In a club with well over 100 shooters we have only one or two official ROs but they are rarely in town to help out so for the most part we have to make do. If all goes well we will be able to swing an RO class here in town in the next few months. This was part of a match, had a very light turn out that night so we just keep running the stages over and over tweaking them a little as we went to see what worked better for each shooter. I think I ran that stage 8 or 9 times. lol

Thanks again everyone for all the help. Now for me to get back to working on things and EARN that A card in Open. Don't want it just on classifiers, I want to shoot at the level of an A class shooter on everything.

Joe W.

[joecichlid]

On a side note I REALLY need to work on dropping some weight. Hopefully that will help me with things as well. It takes a lot to get all of this moving but takes a lot more to get it stopped.

Joe W.