[The_Vigilante]

The New Mexico State IDPA match will be held October 17 in Las Cruces, NM. One of the stages will have an IDPA target at 35 yards. I was out at the range today practicing at approximately 30 yards using Atlanta Arms and Ammo 147g 9mm ammo which I plan on using in the actual match. Shooting a CZ SP01 Phantom. I was aiming at chest level and most of the shots were going into the -1 zone below the '0' zone. I raised my aim almost to the neck of the target and most of the shots did go into the '0' zone. Question: At 35 yards should I be aiming at the head of the target to hit the '0' zone? Thanks

[lugnut]

I have done tests on this kind of stuff. Slow fire I can hit decent groups at my point of aim.... normal hold for the shots I want. When I am not manipulating the gun well- whether it be my trigger finger influencing the shot or something else- low shots happen. I think many people shoot low on longer shots- it's not the bullet dropping put it that way!

For this match- and I were you- I'd probably hold a little high. I don't condone aiming at a different point to compensate for a shooting deficiency but in this case that's what I'd do. I tend to have groups that are well centered laterally so if I had a high or "good" shot it would end up in the head for down zero anyway.

However- check your sights!! What may seem ok for 10yds shots may not be good for 30+ yd shots! I sight my guns at 25yds- slow fire.

[Steve Koski]

Go here:

http://www.handloads.com/calc/

You'll see that your drop at 35 yards is about 2.7". So if you're gonna hold high, don't hold very high! I aim at 35 yard targets just like I aim at 5 yard targets. Right at the center of the -0 circle.

I wonder if the distance is magnifying a slight flinch...

Is that match still open for registration?

Koski

This post has been edited by Steve Koski: 13 October 2009 - 06:11 PM

[lugnut]

Steve- the drop may be around 2" but if you sight in at 25yds or close to it the POI doesn't change tham much at all at 35yds. I suspect user induced "drop".

[Shootingirons45]

I shoot my own reloads with MG's in 147. At 50 yds I have very little, maybe a 3" drop. It may be that you are trying to anticipate the shot. At that distance, trigger control is everything. The only way to overcome it is with practice. Good luck in the match..

[The_Vigilante]

Thanks for your comments. Plan on putting on my Kadet conversion kit tomorrow and shoot a bunch of .22's. What should I be looking for as far as my control of the trigger?

[Shootingirons45]

A surprise break. I know this sounds simplistic but KNOW where your weapons sighting in for. Then, trust your sights.

[Northern Xtreme]

Do a lot of dry firing. The sights should not move off target when the trigger is pulled.

[Nik Habicht]

I've been known to stick a black paster on the head of the target. From ten yards or so, taking all the time in the world, try to fire a group where every round impacts the paster. Now put a black paster on the top center of the -0 zone. Work your way out to 35 yards, maybe in five yard increments, taping after every pair of shots. The goal is to hit the paster -- take all the time you need. Pay attention to your hold, your sight picture and your trigger press. Know, in the instant that the shot breaks, whether you held steady, pulled to left, right or down --- then verify this by taping the target after every two rounds....

The goal is to know how much you need to see to make and successfully call the shot, for the different distances involved....

By all means spend some time on this --- you should learn things that will help on every shot in the match. Don't get too hung up on the distance though --- it's one target...

[Allgoodhits]

T R I G G E R press is the likely culprit. No matter how accurate gun & ammo are, no matter how perfect all other shooting fundamentals are, a bad trigger press will erase it all, especially at the greater distances or smaller targets.

Don't know if CTC or any other Laser grips are available for that gun, but Laser grips at dawn, dusk or cloudy days can reveal in a few dry fire shots at 30-50 yds what boxes of ammo may not. Perhaps better said, the Laser grips reveal truth or evidence (to others too) that the hold was adequate until the trigger was pressed or most likely yanked. At 30-50 yds it doesn't take much poor trigger manipulation to erase an otherwise very good shot.

MJ

This post has been edited by Allgoodhits: 14 October 2009 - 03:09 AM

[DUKE]

Nik Habicht, on Oct 14 2009, 03:07 AM, said:

I've been known to stick a black paster on the head of the target. From ten yards or so, taking all the time in the world, try to fire a group where every round impacts the paster. Now put a black paster on the top center of the -0 zone. Work your way out to 35 yards, maybe in five yard increments, taping after every pair of shots. The goal is to hit the paster -- take all the time you need. Pay attention to your hold, your sight picture and your trigger press. Know, in the instant that the shot breaks, whether you held steady, pulled to left, right or down --- then verify this by taping the target after every two rounds....

The goal is to know how much you need to see to make and successfully call the shot, for the different distances involved....

By all means spend some time on this --- you should learn things that will help on every shot in the match. Don't get too hung up on the distance though --- it's one target...

Good training advice nick.
IMHO Those long shots are all in trigger manipulation and yes see your sights and follow through.

[The_Vigilante]

Thanks for the great tips

[kaiserb]

At 30-40 yds I aim at the top of the 8" ring.

[ben b.]

A laser can be helpful. But a few dummy rounds mixed in with regular ammo will help for much less money, and make the problem easier to detect. BAANG BANG BANG *Click* and whoops! sights are down low! Surprise!

I am a worse shot at bullseye distance than I once was, and it is from action pistol shooting. I'm much faster, and my accuracy is still right near the top of the stage scores (most of the time), but a vertical "flinch" is present and I know it. It becomes apparent when I shoot at 25 yards or more. It is mostly timed correctly for the short range shots, and is nice and vertical, but it is there. When I practice at 25 yards I get it back under control.

My solution when I get a long, >25 yd shot during a match is to hold right around the "low neck/top of the chest" area. The optimal solution is to let the gun do what it wants after the trigger press, the way a bullseye shooter does.

[Duane Thomas]

Well, I hate to be the one to come up with the simple answer here but why not just go for a slightly shorter front sight to raise POI/POA?

[ben b.]

For me, that represents a hardware solution for a software problem.

[Flexmoney]

I find the neck hold (on a standard IDPA/USPSA shaped target) to be a fantastic aiming reference, fwiw.

That has nothing to do with trigger control, zero, or ballistics. I'm just saying...

The head gives a great center of the target, a great aiming reference for windage. And, the nice level shoulders give a clean line to reference elevation.

That said:

Quote

Question: At 35 yards should I be aiming at the head of the target to hit the '0' zone?

No.

Either you don't have a good zero (and don't notice it because shooting close doesn't bring it to light) or trigger press allows the gun to dip (and don't notice it because shooting close doesn't bring it to light).

lugnut, on Oct 13 2009, 07:36 PM, said:

I think many people shoot low on longer shots- it's not the bullet dropping put it that way!

+1

That is what makes taking your "practical" gun to a Bianchi/NRA-Action Pistol match so telling. In USPSA and IDPA, we don't typically see much in the way of targets at distance. And, we often only put a few rounds on them, so we don't see a "group".

I love looking at a target that has a real group on it and analyzing the shooting based on the group.

[Chris Christian]

If your zero your gun at 25 yards (with any handgun load that is commonly used in action pistol competition) you will be so "on" with any IDPA or USPSA target.... from 3 to 35 yards... that if the POI moves more than a couple of inches.... it's the Indian and not the Arrow. If anyone can actually see the scoring rings at 35 yards they have far better eyes than mine. Normally we take a "target" sight picture. A 25 yard zero will get you there at 35 yards. The rest is trigger press... and increased ranges do tend to screw with some shooter's heads. That's the Indian, not the Arrow.
Chris Christian

[Albert]

I had a similar issue come up when I was shooting my CZ SP-01 in production division and using up some 147gr bullet loads prior to the upcoming Area match.

I first tried to hold high and was having difficulty getting it in the A zone. I had my buddy try it and he was having the same issue.
I then switched to a faster 125gr bullet load and problem went away. Still held at the top of the A zone, almost the lower part of the upper panel, but didn't have as much trouble as I did with the 147gr bullets. I believe those 147gr bullets were from West Coast/X-treme.

[The_Vigilante]

Is it possible to zero one's pistol if it has fixed sights?

[ben b.]

The_Vigilante, on Oct 21 2009, 03:29 PM, said:

Is it possible to zero one's pistol if it has fixed sights?

For fixed sights, the windage portion is obviously accomplished by horizontally moving rear and front sights. Changing out front sight blade for a longer one or a shorter one, or filing the blade down, are ways to zero for elevation in fixed. My .45 and .40 guns don't show much POI shift for different loads and keep a reasonable zero, but my 9mm guns sure vary.

This post has been edited by ben b.: 21 October 2009 - 04:26 PM

[lugnut]

The_Vigilante, on Oct 21 2009, 06:29 PM, said:

Is it possible to zero one's pistol if it has fixed sights?

Not unless you get lucky will it be on the money. Like Ben said- you have to get new front sights or grind some of the top if your POI is low. That's why I always like adj rears for my competition guns.

[lugnut]

Flexmoney, on Oct 21 2009, 04:57 PM, said:

I find the neck hold (on a standard IDPA/USPSA shaped target) to be a fantastic aiming reference, fwiw.

That has nothing to do with trigger control, zero, or ballistics. I'm just saying...

The head gives a great center of the target, a great aiming reference for windage. And, the nice level shoulders give a clean line to reference elevation.

So do you do this to sight in your gun at that distance or just to see the grouping at that distance? Makes sense to me if so.

[sigfla]

Is your normal load the 147 AA? I found that with my .45 using 185 GA and 230 AA ammo I had significant deviations on POI at that distance. My 230's were dead on but my 185's were a bit high by 4-5 inches or so. My hits would have been down zero in the chest but I was aiming for the head of the IDPA target and had a nice 185g group just above the target in the cardboard backing. At 100 yds the 230's were dead on but my 185's were super high so much so that to hit I had to aim below the target.

[Duane Thomas]

Quote

For me, that represents a hardware solution for a software problem.

How do we know it's a software problem and not a hardware problem?