[Steven Cline]

Hey all!

I am seeking anyone with the foresight to have keep historical data for USPSA, classifiers, and performance. Ideally someone could provide me with HF for the same X classifiers over a few decades or more.

Our sport progresses; new HF are posted, this makes it a little tougher to Make C, B, A, M, GM each time someone does so. I am curious as to how much harder it is to make C, B, A, M, GM now than 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 15... etc.

Along with this is curiosity to see how a M from 20 years ago would rate now.

I believe that at one time the GM class was crated out of the M class.

So, please share your historical knowledge or point to where it can be devined.

Much appreciated in advance.

Steve

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: I think you find that the classifiers have gotten harder as time goes on. I overheard some old timers saying that they wanted to get there single stack classifier scores in early before they become harder. It is just like golf, saying that Ben Hogan was the best of all time. Well that could be true or not. The equipment has gotten better and so have the players since they actually train now instead of drinking all night(some still do). I would say the same is true of shooters as well. Not sure on the drinking Thanks, Eric

[Chris Keen]

GM was originally supposed to be reserved for PROFESSIONAL SHOOTERS, not amateurs who could shoot just as fast.

[Flexmoney]

Chris Keen, on Oct 7 2009, 01:59 PM, said:

GM was originally supposed to be reserved for PROFESSIONAL SHOOTERS, not amateurs who could shoot just as fast.

Really? Where did you get that? I don't know that I've heard that before.

[Bill Nesbitt]

In the beginning there was one division and 3 classes; A, B & C. Later they added M & D. After that they added GM. When GM was first talked about it was going to be for anyone who was sponsored. I know a lady local B shooter who dropped her sponsor so she wouldn't be moved to GM.

[Sterling White]

This sounds like a great topic for research and discussion by Jim Scouten. It would be cool to get some footage with interviews from some of the first GM's and have it aired.

[DUKE]

Learn something new everyday on Enos ! I have a friend who tells me tales from the old day's {80's}. Wait a minute I could have started shooting matches back then I am almost 44 !

[Rob Boudrie]

Whenever something new is done, you have a combination of motivations behind the people casting the votes; assumed motivations people guess at; and actual group motivations that are the result of board discussion. People to latch on to one thought, comment or opinion - in many cases from someone who was not even one of the people to vote on the change - and start saying that's "why" this was done.

Unless there is an official statement, all you're getting are (a) rumors, or ( one person's opinion, as to why a particular decision was made.

[Jadeslade]

Steven Cline, on Oct 7 2009, 09:11 AM, said:

Hey all!

I am seeking anyone with the foresight to have keep historical data for USPSA, classifiers, and performance. Ideally someone could provide me with HF for the same X classifiers over a few decades or more.

Our sport progresses; new HF are posted, this makes it a little tougher to Make C, B, A, M, GM each time someone does so. I am curious as to how much harder it is to make C, B, A, M, GM now than 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 15... etc.

Along with this is curiosity to see how a M from 20 years ago would rate now.

I believe that at one time the GM class was crated out of the M class.

So, please share your historical knowledge or point to where it can be devined.

Much appreciated in advance.

Steve

I recently asked a prominent IPSC functionary about the history of rules and changes and the like. Nothing really available besides personal mementos and articles. Some of the guys are old, some of the guys are cold, and it is probably time to really start an archive of all this material or write a history. I have noticed that people like Jmaas and some other posters can always pull something out to illustrate a point or answer a question. I think you should write a book. I can't write real well.

[Shootingirons45]

I'm not a IPSC/USPSA historian but I have been shooting these games since 1981. Back when I started there was A, B,C,D,U classes. Also back then a Kimber would have been what we called a race gun..my how times have changed.

[Steven Cline]

Shootingirons45, on Oct 7 2009, 05:53 PM, said:

I'm not a IPSC/USPSA historian but I have been shooting these games since 1981. Back when I started there was A, B,C,D,U classes. Also back then a Kimber would have been what we called a race gun..my how times have changed.

OK, you sound like a great person to start with!

Are we shooting any classifiers today that we were in the 1980s?
Do you have any records or recollections on top level performance on those same classifiers?

I know we have seen huge changes in equipment since the 1980s, but single stack and revolver might provide us the... best approximation of apples to apples comparisons.

[CenTX]

I was match director for the Brazos Practical Shooters (Houston, TX). I assume it was 1978 since I have a copy of the first draft of the IPSC rules for practical pistol competition sent to me by Jeff Cooper dated june 1978.

Originally there were no classes or divisions. Everybody shot against everybody else straight up.

edited for clarification.

This post has been edited by CenTX: 07 October 2009 - 07:17 PM

[CenTX]

Steven Cline, on Oct 7 2009, 08:11 AM, said:

Along with this is curiosity to see how a M from 20 years ago would rate now.

Steve

Rob Leatham and Brian Enos were shooting then and would probably be able to comment on that.

David Cupp is at some of the Austin and San Antonio matches and he was active then also. He's in this picture from Brians site.

I quit shooting in about 1984 and did not shoot any matches again until 2004, so I can't answer your question.

Attached File(s)

•  theboysbig.jpg (35.56K)
  Number of downloads: 85

This post has been edited by CenTX: 07 October 2009 - 07:44 PM

[jar]

Another aspect that would be interesting is a history of the equipment rules. A friend of mine recently picked up a comped single stack 38 super in a trade. Was there a division that would've been built for at some time in the past? It had iron sights, but looked like it was tapped for a scope mount at some point.

[BSeevers]

GM was created cause the regular M's were tired of competiting head to head with Pro's like Rob Todd and Jerry.
Bill's right on
One division heads up. Classes later
The single stack 38 super mentioned was the end of heads up.It wasnt "a created" division. It was one division and it was a race to knowledge. It was a true "racegun"
I remember Jerry being laughed at for bringing a silly red dot to the natls. Then he won and we all bought one. Thats history.
Limited followed and the rest.

[Charles Bond]

Steven Cline, on Oct 7 2009, 09:11 AM, said:

Hey all!

I am seeking anyone with the foresight to have keep historical data for USPSA, classifiers, and performance. Ideally someone could provide me with HF for the same X classifiers over a few decades or more.

Our sport progresses; new HF are posted, this makes it a little tougher to Make C, B, A, M, GM each time someone does so. I am curious as to how much harder it is to make C, B, A, M, GM now than 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 15... etc.

Along with this is curiosity to see how a M from 20 years ago would rate now.

I believe that at one time the GM class was crated out of the M class.

So, please share your historical knowledge or point to where it can be devined.

Much appreciated in advance.

Steve

If it can be supplied, Dave Thomas who is the executive director of USPSA would be the best possible source.

[Steven Cline]

BSeevers, on Oct 7 2009, 09:06 PM, said:

GM was created cause the regular M's were tired of competiting head to head with Pro's like Rob Todd and Jerry.
Bill's right on
One division heads up. Classes later
The single stack 38 super mentioned was the end of heads up.It wasnt "a created" division. It was one division and it was a race to knowledge. It was a true "racegun"
I remember Jerry being laughed at for bringing a silly red dot to the natls. Then he won and we all bought one. Thats history.
Limited followed and the rest.

That's a great post! Now we need some dates- when did the classes begin getting created? When did Jerry bring a silly red dot to the Nationals? Any idea?

[Steven Cline]

Charles Bond, on Oct 8 2009, 04:39 AM, said:

If it can be supplied, Dave Thomas who is the executive director of USPSA would be the best possible source.

Thanks Dave, I'll contact Mr. Thomas.

[Bill Nesbitt]

Guess I should head for the basement and dig out all my Front Sight magazines. Probably have most of them from the beginning.

[Flexmoney]

Bill, Jeff Maass just sold his lifetime supply of Front Sight magazines. Pretty decent price, IIRC.

[ChuckS]

To help things along here is a scan of the first "rulebook". It covers all 39 rules. (you could make a case for there only being 38 since there are 2 37's )

Later,
Chuck

 IPSC_1st_1978.pdf (1.27MB)
Number of downloads: 48

[JThompson]

Brian should write the book on this.... He has all the contacts and was there too. I'd like a book of history and "stories."

JT

[gregdavidl]

Off and on there has been talk of going through the late Nyle Leatham's files and printing a pictorial history book of the sport. I remember talking to Nyle at some long ago Nationals about it and him saying what a huge project it would be to go through all of the pictures he had. It would be an awesome book. I started shooting in 1984, became an USPSA member in 1986 and attended my first Nationals in Dallas in 1988 (I think that's the right year). One of my memories of that match is shooting a standards while standing next to JoAnn Hall. Lots of matches, shooting and craziness over all the years I actively competed.

[CenTX]

ChuckS, on Oct 8 2009, 09:09 AM, said:

To help things along here is a scan of the first "rulebook". It covers all 39 rules. (you could make a case for there only being 38 since there are 2 37's )

Later,
Chuck
IPSC_1st_1978.pdf

Actually that is a scan of the "first draft" of the rules that I have. Don't know if they were adopted as written or if there were other drafts.

edited to add detail.

This post has been edited by CenTX: 10 October 2009 - 09:48 AM