[L-10_shooter]

I am having a hard time getting my draw to be consistantly quick. I usually draw 1.50-1.60 to first shot. In practics or dry fire at home I can get it down to 1.2-1.3 sometimes. Here is a steel match and a uspsa match that I shot this last weekend. How am I wasting movement or going slow. Feel free to comment on other areas in the uspsa match. Glock 35 out of a Black Hawk serpa with the button removed.

Steel
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=19xeCIQbDVE

USPSA
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=peUffa12N_o

[boz1911]

It appears that there is a pause once your hand contacts the gun. Perhaps it's the holster?

[flack jacket]

L-10_shooter, on Sep 28 2009, 04:18 PM, said:

I am having a hard time getting my draw to be consistantly quick. I usually draw 1.50-1.60 to first shot. In practics or dry fire at home I can get it down to 1.2-1.3 sometimes. Here is a steel match and a uspsa match that I shot this last weekend. How am I wasting movement or going slow. Feel free to comment on other areas in the uspsa match. Glock 35 out of a Black Hawk serpa with the button removed.

Steel
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=19xeCIQbDVE

USPSA
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=peUffa12N_o

Good Shooting Bro!!

You are doing very well right now...

How I draw from the surrender position:

- I move my strong hand a split second first before the weak hand.
2 Reasons:
1. My weak hand does not need to go as far, about sternum level, so it meets my strong hand perfectly at position two.
2. I noticed I will reduce the amount my body will move if arms move separate times.

- While pistol in rig, take a full shooting grip with strong hand, then I "measure" and only pivot my wrists upward from the elbows. Provided my wrists are above my shoulders. ( I think that stipulates it in the rule book)

- Think "snatching" the gun... then have both hands meet approximately at sternum level, as you press the gun out. Only if you have a good full grip. Just practice.
- Steel Challenge allows holster to be in the appendix position on your rig, easier to draw vs. the muzzle parallel to your pant seam.
- USPSA Production class rules require muzzle to be parallel to pant seam. Correct me on this. Or is it IDPA?
- Try a different holster, Ghost, Limcat, CR. Less leather to clear ( if any), your times will improve.

Hope my tips help.

Edrick

This post has been edited by flack jacket: 28 September 2009 - 04:40 PM

[bkeeler]

1. It looks like you are drawing from a Kydex holster, I would recommend moving the holster back you have it to far forward. In the link below you can see that I have my holster back. With a kydex holster it needs to be back farther compaired to a race holster.

On the surrender start I would move my elbows out more. I used to do the surrender draws with my elbows in like yours and with great help from folks here I changed. I asked the same thing a while back and got lots of info that helped me get sub 1 second draws from a kydex holster. Look here: http://www.brianenos...showtopic=80868

EDIT To Add:
Here is the video of how I do the surrender draw now this is just dry fire doing it slow.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=l7Z4HdLCwLw


Hope this helps.

BK

This post has been edited by bkeeler: 28 September 2009 - 04:58 PM

[racerba]

1 - definitely, you are pausing once you get your hand on the gun.
2 - I agree to move the holster back so you are not wasting a movement of going backward then forward again. If you would have a race holster, that holster position would be ideal.

[JThompson]

You are moving at the waist when you go for the gun. You are bent over then you thrust your hips forward to get to the gun and then move them back once you have the gun. The reason you are having troubling with consistency is you are trying to catch a moving target.

This post has been edited by JThompson: 28 September 2009 - 05:16 PM

[atbarr]

What type of belt are you wearing. In the steel video, it looks like your holster is riding up when you draw. Check out http://thebeltman.net/index.htm

A.T.

[JThompson]

atbarr, on Sep 28 2009, 07:21 PM, said:

What type of belt are you wearing. In the steel video, it looks like your holster is riding up when you draw. Check out http://thebeltman.net/index.htm

A.T.

Watch his hips AT.... There is a big swing forward and back.

[atbarr]

Watch the steel video at 1:02, when he draws his pistol, he pulls his pants up, along with his holster.

A.T.

[G-ManBart]

That holster probably has quite a bit of tension compared with what a lot of folks are using. It also needs to be moved back so that you can naturally draw the gun straight up and out. As it is you're bringing the gun up and back which is the wrong direction. Straight up, punch forward and meet the support hand around the middle of your chest and straight out to the target.

Your support hand is coming down to your belt level to meet the gun. That needs to happen much higher to be smooth and fast.

This is totally unrelated, but I notice that you reach your right hand over the top of the gun and grab the front of the slide to clear it/rack the slide. That is a very, very bad idea. If you're unlucky enough (it happens regularly) to get a round that bounces off the ejector in the wrong way and the round detonates your right hand could get pretty badly injured. It's not as bad for righties because the ejection port opens on the opposite side from their hand, but if you're going to grabl the front of the slide to clear the gun it's a really good idea to do it from below. I haven't had it happen to me but a buddy has a bunch of brass in his hand from a round that detonated that way.

As part of something totally unrelated to match shooting I recorded a couple of normal draws with my single stack rig. If you just ignore the commentary and watch for extra body movement (shoulders are a key area to watch)....there isn't much. I'm not a tall guy so I don't have a lot of room between the holster and my shoulder so I do have to raise up a little on the right side, but that's about it. My support hand goes to my lower chest, and from a race rig it goes a little higher. I'm certainly not the greatest, but this wasn't an effort to go as fast as I can, it was an effort to do exactly 1s flat shooting A's....no problem, and I can go a tenth or two quicker without much trouble, but don't try to do that in a match.
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=52W3bjBdLzA

This post has been edited by G-ManBart: 28 September 2009 - 07:10 PM

[AR Gunner]

JThompson, on Sep 28 2009, 05:11 PM, said:

You are moving at the waist when you go for the gun. You are bent over then you thrust your hips forward to get to the gun and then move them back once you have the gun. The reason you are having troubling with consistency is you are trying to catch a moving target.

Agreed. You start bent over, then straighten up, then bend again at the waist. I also noticed a bit of inconsistency in getting your hand to the same place on the gun during each draw.

[mike4045]

Definite pause when you get to the gun.

Lots of movement in your upper body.

+++ on moving the holster, you are drawing it into your body. Put it in a position near the centerline of the hip. I use this with my kydex holsters. Your belt will work better with the holster moved. It will cut down on the "wedgies".

Mike

[L-10_shooter]

Thanks for the replys guys.

I know I pause when my hand hits the gun. This is because I am unshure if I have a good grip or not. The holster has just barely enough tension to keep it from falling out when walking around. I think I tilt it when pulling on it and that pulls up on my belt /pants.

My belt is a duty velcro that overlaps in the front only where it comes together. I am very limited on funding so this is what I have, same with the holster. I would like to get a CR speed when I have the funds.

Now that you guys have pointed it out, I can see all the hip movement. Also the fact that I have to pull the gun back then forward, not very efficent. When I shot the steel match, I did a few of the draws, unshure which ones on what stages, standing straight up, seemed smoother. I don't have a very consistant grip on the gun and I think you guys have pointed it out, I am trying to grab a moving target. I will have to work on that. The pause to enshure my grip is correct should in turn go away.

I started this game shooting unclassified production. When I started shooting L-10, I moved my holster farther forward thinking it would be faster (why not, that is how all the race rigs are). But I have now seen the light, pulling the gun back to get it out of the holdter is counter productive. I will have to move it back and get used to it being there, should also have less of a problem with the hip movement as well. It also looks like I need to tuck my elbow back farther, I seem to be getting lax on that. Need to start dry firing regularly again.

G-manbart
This summer I started clearing my gun that way so the ro would have a much easier time looking into the chamber. I have tried to train myself to grip the slide with (weak hand) palm on the right, fingers on the left to clear jams. I guess doing the unload show clear has changed that. I will have to get in the habit of clearing safely. It is a good point, I have read stories about detonation rounds and every time someone tips the gun with the weak hand totally covering the ejection port to catch their round I cringe.

Thanks for the info, this is good stuff and why I love the Enos forum so much!!

[G-ManBart]

I'd play around with the holster position while in front of a mirror. Try to find a spot near the center of your hip where your hand comes up to naturally when drawing from hands at sides and where you hand slaps down on the grip from above when drawing from surrender. No position will be perfect for both, but you can usually find one that requires very little hand/wrist movement from either start position. That will let you get a more consistent grip every time and that alone will save you time....you'll know it's going to be right "there" so you will let yourself move fast.

Believe it or not, a CR Speed, or other race holster, isn't much faster once you really get your draw refined. For the really good guys it's probably a tenth difference and some none at all. They do make it a bit easier to find exactly the right spot, which is nice, but it's not worth worrying about too much. If you keep your current belt snug it should be okay once you get a good holster position...the gun won't be pulling on the holster enough to really move it around much. R,

[CHA-LEE]

Holly smokey rounds batman!!! Figure out a different load that does not smoke like a Choo Choo Train every shot...... If you can't see the targets through the haze its gotta be harder to hit them acuratly.

[L-10_shooter]

CHA-LEE, on Sep 28 2009, 07:49 PM, said:

Holly smokey rounds batman!!! Figure out a different load that does not smoke like a Choo Choo Train every shot...... If you can't see the targets through the haze its gotta be harder to hit them acuratly.

Its funny you say that. I was thinking the same thing when making the video. The steel match I shot plated 9mm and major 40 lead for uspsa. I think the sun position reflecting off the smoke exagerates it alot. The 9mm didn't smoke at all from my (shooters) prospective. The .40 is smoky but I have shot/seen much worse. It also does not interfer with my seeing the targets. Ramshot Silhoutte is the powder for both and I absolutly love the way it recoils in my hands, so that is not going to change.

G-manbart
As soon as I got done reading the comments I started playing with the holster position and draws. I noticed that it goes much smoother when I keep my back straight and not lean forward. I will continue to play with it till I find a happy medium.

[JThompson]

G-ManBart, on Sep 28 2009, 09:44 PM, said:

I'd play around with the holster position while in front of a mirror. Try to find a spot near the center of your hip where your hand comes up to naturally when drawing from hands at sides and where you hand slaps down on the grip from above when drawing from surrender. No position will be perfect for both, but you can usually find one that requires very little hand/wrist movement from either start position. That will let you get a more consistent grip every time and that alone will save you time....you'll know it's going to be right "there" so you will let yourself move fast.

Believe it or not, a CR Speed, or other race holster, isn't much faster once you really get your draw refined. For the really good guys it's probably a tenth difference and some none at all. They do make it a bit easier to find exactly the right spot, which is nice, but it's not worth worrying about too much. If you keep your current belt snug it should be okay once you get a good holster position...the gun won't be pulling on the holster enough to really move it around much. R,

Best draw was from a DOH at .55 to an A at 7. That with a Beretta PX4.

[L-10_shooter]

That is impressive, no wonder I see so many people using that holster.

[01G8R]

JThompson

Was the .55 draw from surrender or relaxed at sides?

The practice in front of the mirror really helped me. I was in the 1.6 range RAS and Surrender when I first got started. I read in a book that it takes 2 to 3 weeks of regular practice (4-5 times a day) to get the motor memory developed for a new technique. Remember when you read about someone's smoking fast draw that without all the relevant info (gun type, holster style. target style and distance) it is hard to compare your own times to someone else. If I told you that I can draw and get an A zone hit in .6 seconds you might think that is smoking fast, but if I then said it was with an open gun out of a CR Speed rig at 7 yards it wouldn't seem out of the range of possibility.

My fastest RAS draw (Glock 34, DOH Holster, 10" plate at 10 yards) is .80 seconds with regular match performances in the .95 to 1.05 range. The same setup Surrender fastest is .93 seconds with 1.15 to 1.25 in matches. I'm not a speed demon on the draw, but I am working on it and the time I'm putting in is paying off. My goal is to have consistent sub one second draws in a match setting. Remember what Max Michel said on one of the 3GM videos. Listen for the B in BEEEEEEP. Don't leave any time on the table reacting to the beep. That has really helped me.

Another item that has helped me with the draw is lots of slow, perfect form, practice. I also find that it really helps me to bring the gun up closer to the body and punch it out flat to the target. I'm farsighted to it helps me to have more time to adjust my focus to the front sight if I spend more time punching the gun out to the target instead of bringing it up and only pushing it out the last 3-4 inches. This helps me get the first shot off faster because I am finding the sights sooner. I find that in a match I revert to not punching it out as much as in practice, but more than the last 3-4 inches. Kind of like Burkett reloads for me. I practice them real high up in my grill, but in a match I tend to drop the gun a little more when doing a reload. Hope this helps.

[G-ManBart]

01G8R, on Sep 29 2009, 02:10 AM, said:

JThompson

Was the .55 draw from surrender or relaxed at sides?

The practice in front of the mirror really helped me. I was in the 1.6 range RAS and Surrender when I first got started. I read in a book that it takes 2 to 3 weeks of regular practice (4-5 times a day) to get the motor memory developed for a new technique. Remember when you read about someone's smoking fast draw that without all the relevant info (gun type, holster style. target style and distance) it is hard to compare your own times to someone else. If I told you that I can draw and get an A zone hit in .6 seconds you might think that is smoking fast, but if I then said it was with an open gun out of a CR Speed rig at 7 yards it wouldn't seem out of the range of possibility.

My fastest RAS draw (Glock 34, DOH Holster, 10" plate at 10 yards) is .80 seconds with regular match performances in the .95 to 1.05 range. The same setup Surrender fastest is .93 seconds with 1.15 to 1.25 in matches. I'm not a speed demon on the draw, but I am working on it and the time I'm putting in is paying off. My goal is to have consistent sub one second draws in a match setting. Remember what Max Michel said on one of the 3GM videos. Listen for the B in BEEEEEEP. Don't leave any time on the table reacting to the beep. That has really helped me.

Another item that has helped me with the draw is lots of slow, perfect form, practice. I also find that it really helps me to bring the gun up closer to the body and punch it out flat to the target. I'm farsighted to it helps me to have more time to adjust my focus to the front sight if I spend more time punching the gun out to the target instead of bringing it up and only pushing it out the last 3-4 inches. This helps me get the first shot off faster because I am finding the sights sooner. I find that in a match I revert to not punching it out as much as in practice, but more than the last 3-4 inches. Kind of like Burkett reloads for me. I practice them real high up in my grill, but in a match I tend to drop the gun a little more when doing a reload. Hope this helps.

Honestly, putting the effort into the goal of sub-one second draws in a match setting is probably time better spent on something else. Sure, you don't want to give time away on the draw but it isn't what wins stages. Watch the super squad at any big match and I doubt you'll see first shots that fast except for on the absolute closest first targets you can think of.

The one nice thing is the draw is easy to work on at home and I think that's why folks spend so much time working on it, but it often seems the folks working the most on it are the newer/lower class shooters who can make massive gains by using that same time on something else (not saying you fall into that group)....and they're working hard for a tenth or two on their draw

[01G8R]

G-ManBart

Thanks for the advice. I'm devoting plenty of time to improvement in other areas too. I should have been a little more clear that the reason I'm working on the surrender draw is for the Steel Challenge. I'm pretty happy with my RAS draw in practice and match settings. My shooting is at the point where I am doing very well (winning limited regularly) in the local steel challenge matches, but I know I am leaving some time on the table with the surrender draw.

I have a CR Speed rig and am faster out of it, but for some reason I just not comfortable with the holster design and retention when moving around, setting steel and pasting. Lots of guys use them, but I prefer the DOH and am committed to using it. I wonder what the first shot times are for the top guys shooting limited in Steel Challenge. Anyone know?

[Pat Harrison]

You are spending too much time aquiring your grip. When your hand goes to the gun you are hunting. Find or create a common reference point. The beavertail area works well for me or you could place and index point on the holster body. Something you can touch that will tell you that your hand is in the right place to aquire the grip. Your hand should come directly to the spot you want to grip the gun.

[JThompson]

01G8R, on Sep 29 2009, 01:10 AM, said:

JThompson

Was the .55 draw from surrender or relaxed at sides?

The practice in front of the mirror really helped me. I was in the 1.6 range RAS and Surrender when I first got started. I read in a book that it takes 2 to 3 weeks of regular practice (4-5 times a day) to get the motor memory developed for a new technique. Remember when you read about someone's smoking fast draw that without all the relevant info (gun type, holster style. target style and distance) it is hard to compare your own times to someone else. If I told you that I can draw and get an A zone hit in .6 seconds you might think that is smoking fast, but if I then said it was with an open gun out of a CR Speed rig at 7 yards it wouldn't seem out of the range of possibility.

My fastest RAS draw (Glock 34, DOH Holster, 10" plate at 10 yards) is .80 seconds with regular match performances in the .95 to 1.05 range. The same setup Surrender fastest is .93 seconds with 1.15 to 1.25 in matches. I'm not a speed demon on the draw, but I am working on it and the time I'm putting in is paying off. My goal is to have consistent sub one second draws in a match setting. Remember what Max Michel said on one of the 3GM videos. Listen for the B in BEEEEEEP. Don't leave any time on the table reacting to the beep. That has really helped me.

Another item that has helped me with the draw is lots of slow, perfect form, practice. I also find that it really helps me to bring the gun up closer to the body and punch it out flat to the target. I'm farsighted to it helps me to have more time to adjust my focus to the front sight if I spend more time punching the gun out to the target instead of bringing it up and only pushing it out the last 3-4 inches. This helps me get the first shot off faster because I am finding the sights sooner. I find that in a match I revert to not punching it out as much as in practice, but more than the last 3-4 inches. Kind of like Burkett reloads for me. I practice them real high up in my grill, but in a match I tend to drop the gun a little more when doing a reload. Hope this helps.

Relaxed...

I'm no where near that in a match. Usually around 1-1.2 depending on how far the target is. I was just wondering how fast I could go and still hit something. That was pretty much a point shoot shot.

This post has been edited by JThompson: 01 October 2009 - 02:31 PM