[jkatz44]

joecichlid, on Sep 26 2009, 10:51 PM, said:

<slight drift> So now we know who posted the Hitler banned video ROFL <slight drift/>

Joe W

How do you hang your targets on the garage/walls? Also, how did you make that swinger?
Jason

[sfpmb]

hk_mtbr, on Oct 2 2009, 06:49 AM, said:

I keep watching this video but I don't think I'm getting any better yet.

Thank you, whoever

I have not laughed so hard, probably in years as when I just watched the video about the person banned from the forums. Very witty. I almost fell out of my chair. My ribs hurt.

[Micah]

jkatz44, on Oct 3 2009, 12:00 PM, said:

How do you hang your targets on the garage/walls? Also, how did you make that swinger?
Jason

Staples in the walls, two sided poster-sticker-upper-stuff for the garage door.

The swinger is actually a match grade design bought by Chris Keen.

[Chris Keen]

or as they say in the Smithsonian ................. on loan from (Chris Keen)

[lugnut]

I really like the idea of pasters in the upper A zone. Good idea. I usually outline the A zone perfs with a sharpie.

[CHA-LEE]

lugnut, on Nov 5 2009, 07:41 AM, said:

I really like the idea of pasters in the upper A zone. Good idea. I usually outline the A zone perfs with a sharpie.

Why? Are the perf's outlined/highlighted at the matches you attend to bring your attention to them? No

I have always been a huge proponent of "Practice in match based conditions as much as possible". The more you practice what you will experience in a match the more you can really burn in skills that you need at a match. If you train on targets with highlighted perfs or predetermined marks on the targets then you are training your brain to key off of those visual queues. Unfortunately those visual queues will not exist at a match so all of your training in that effort is for not.

Since the skill of calling a shot is 100% visual, you need to train your brain to process a sight picture quickly and instantaneously call it good or bad. When you introduce artificial visual queues into the equation, such as patches on the A-zones or highlighted perf's, then you are changing what your brain needs and expects to call the shot. Then when you go to a match your brain is expecting the patches or highlighted perfs to correctly call the shot and your hit quality goes into the crapper because you are trying to call a shot condition that does not exist compared to your 309270238424 hours of dry fire practice.

Think LONG and HARD about this situation so you don't throw yourself under the bus on practicing incorrectly.

Do what you want to do, but it does not make sense to me to practice what I am NOT going to experience in a match stage run.

[lugnut]

CHA-LEE, on Nov 5 2009, 12:07 PM, said:

lugnut, on Nov 5 2009, 07:41 AM, said:

I really like the idea of pasters in the upper A zone. Good idea. I usually outline the A zone perfs with a sharpie.

Why? Are the perf's outlined/highlighted at the matches you attend to bring your attention to them? No

I have always been a huge proponent of "Practice in match based conditions as much as possible". The more you practice what you will experience in a match the more you can really burn in skills that you need at a match. If you train on targets with highlighted perfs or predetermined marks on the targets then you are training your brain to key off of those visual queues. Unfortunately those visual queues will not exist at a match so all of your training in that effort is for not.

Since the skill of calling a shot is 100% visual, you need to train your brain to process a sight picture quickly and instantaneously call it good or bad. When you introduce artificial visual queues into the equation, such as patches on the A-zones or highlighted perf's, then you are changing what your brain needs and expects to call the shot. Then when you go to a match your brain is expecting the patches or highlighted perfs to correctly call the shot and your hit quality goes into the crapper because you are trying to call a shot condition that does not exist compared to your 309270238424 hours of dry fire practice.

Think LONG and HARD about this situation so you don't throw yourself under the bus on practicing incorrectly.

Do what you want to do, but it does not make sense to me to practice what I am NOT going to experience in a match stage run.

I'll let the OP to respond if he wants wrt to the patches. I got the idea of the outlines from Saul Kirsch(Matt Burkett maybe)... I think he has a good idea of practice techniques too. You point is taken though.

This post has been edited by lugnut: 05 November 2009 - 10:19 AM

[Micah]

CHA-LEE the pasters are there to further shrink the size of my acceptable shot placement zone. Angus and Saul talk about this at length in their videos and books. Having the whole target outline is important for continuity sake and allows me to further ingrain the subconscious, unthinking skill of indexing on targets at various heights and distances. Furthermore anyone can transition from one large metric target to the next with speed, but I choose to zero in my snap to a defined, refined portion of the target. Any A zone hit is not enough for me in dryfire for many drills.

I can assure you that I have thought "LONG and HARD about this situation". I do not expect to see white pasters located in the A zone of scoring targets, nor do I look for them at matches.


I have never been to the Nationals, nor have I been on the cover of Front Sight magazine. In no way do I assert that I have the one true religion (methodology) of dryfire. What I have done however, as you stated, is spend "309270238424 hours" practicing the fundamentals in both dryfire and livefire as I have been taught by top GMs and have a decent idea as to what works for me.

YMMV

[CHA-LEE]

The fun thing about being human is that everyone learns differently. If practicing one way is successful for you then go for it. I know that the way I learn isn’t exactly the same as everyone else. I just figured I would offer my opinion on the subject. I am not trying to convince anyone that one way is better than another.

I am simply trying to stick a seed in the back of peoples minds to point out that its more important to figure out the best way to practice for YOU. Not how XYZ shooter does it, or this or that way will be the magical cure. It takes a lot of effort and home work for people to research their own challenges and formulate the best plan of attack to solve those challenges in the best way that suits their learning method.

First be a student of yourself to learn what tools work best for you to learn. Once you know that solving issues becomes all that much easier.

For example, I know for me the visual picture of my sights on the target in the correct place and correct alignment is very critical. That instantaneous sight picture right before the shot breaks needs to equal a specific thing for me to call it correctly. I have tried putting marks on targets or outlining perfs and once I trained my mental picture of the called sight picture into “Seeing” those things, I was somewhat lost or maybe not as confident in calling my shots when I would shoot in a match because those visual queues were not there on the match targets. That is why I have gone away from marking the targets and my ability to called shots has gotten way better in matches.

Maybe its easier for me to understand and implement coming from a previous competitive hobby? A huge competitive mantra that I use to live by with that hobby was “Practice with what you race with”. People would use cheaper or less effective things to practice with because it was cheaper and they could practice more. But when they had to race and use their racing gear it performed different than the practice stuff and their overall performance would suffer. To me, this is no different in competitive shooting. Practice with/how you would compete and your competition performance will be rewarded accordingly. Practice in a way which you don’t compete and your competition performance may or may not reap the benefits of that practice.

If you practice stationary one shot draws 50 times a day and then go to a match and shoot in that same condition once, then what use is that practice really? 1 – 2% of your possible stage runs? It would make more sense to practice shooting on the move 50 times a day as that is used on almost every stage in a match. Invest in your practice to which you will reap the most reward. Or not and wonder why you are stuck in a rutt

[Micah]

Two things in your post really stick out as great points:

Quote

Practice in a way which you don't compete and your competition performance may or may not reap the benefits of that practice.

When shooters ask me about how I practice, this is always the first thing that comes out of my mouth. Cleats, shirt, pants, glasses, ear protection...keep everything that you can the same as you would in a match. The caveat is that even in livefire, you can never truly simulate the exact conditions of a match, be it major or club. What we can train are the fundamentals of our great sport. Proper technique, desire to move that gun to the next target's A zone, moving on the draw, leaning out of positions...these are the constants that we encounter in every match. Again, no matter what drills you set up, unless you are rehearsing particular classifiers, you can never precisely rehearse exact matches.
Once you understand that, training becomes less of a rehearsal and more of a refinement of the techniques needed to succeed at your competitive level.

Quote

If you practice stationary one shot draws 50 times a day and then go to a match and shoot in that same condition once, then what use is that practice really? 1 – 2% of your possible stage runs? It would make more sense to practice shooting on the move 50 times a day as that is used on almost every stage in a match.

This goes back to my statement above. Practice stand and shoots, and you will become great at them but get pounded in the match point saturated field courses. Practice the fundamentals of the game as a whole and become wholly a better shooter. CHA-LEE, if I had it my way, I would spend 10 hours/8,000rds a day at the range. The reality is that the scale of economies and having a profession are prohibitive factors. Dryfire procures itself as a means of refining the fundamentals of USPSA/IDPA in an infinitely less expensive, less time consuming medium. I am acutely aware that no matches will occur in my garage, much like a martial artist is aware that a life or death encounter with an advisory will not occur in one's own dojo. This does not prevent the training of the fundamentals when a match/combat is bound to occur. The dryfire and katas will continue in preparation.

[Flyin40]

Putting the pasters or something on a target is a great idea and it works. There are quite a few reasons for using them.

1. It helps to train the eyes to snap to a spot rather than a target. You don't have to use pasters, you can just practice snapping to the upper right corner of the A zone
or bottom left. This helps tremendously with newer shooters working on snapping the eyes. It also helps keeping a shooter from getting lazy. Its a good way to
practice or dryfire if you notice that you are getting sloppy with points. Its very easy to get lazy snapping the eyes to the next target.

2. When dryfiring alot of the times the targets are reduced sized, so the perfs aren't visible. If you make targets yourself you can make the perf indents larger and
more visible.

3. Most dryfiring is done inside and lighting is less than optimal making seeing the perfs even harder or near impossible. Even on the worst overcast day you can
still see the perf easily outdoors unless it rains and there are bags.

4. Micah already mentioned this. Having a smaller acceptable shot area. I don't use full size targets anymore for practice. I actually use 1/2 scale airsoft targets from
Ced.


Another problem with dryfiring is being honest with the speed you dryfire at and calling your shots. Not only have I put pasters on targets but I put numbers on the pasters while working on visual patience. I used the drill to work on opening up my vision to be able to see the numbers clearly on the pasters. I didn't try to slow down or speed up, just see.


You don't have to practice with what you shoot with in a match. The only thing I use to practice with that is the same is my shooting glasses and holster/belt. I shoot Open and I bet I don't shoot 1500 rounds a yr outside of matches with my Open gun. I practice with a 22 with zero adjustment going back to my open gun. It works for me but might not for someone else.


The whole point is practice what works for you. Whats right for one can be wrong for another.


Keep an open mind........

So back to topic. How is the new drills working out for you PB?? How comfortable are you shooting on the move in dryfire?? How much experimenting have you been doing with shooting at the earliest possible time when coming into a position.

For all the above questions, As compared to prior to our practice??


Flyin

[Ben Stoeger]

The idea that we should always practice the things we expect to see in a match or always practice just like a match sounds appealing. We want our practice to be relevant. I would point out that we don’t want to always practice things just like the match. Sometimes we want to fire into the berm just to get a feel for the gun. Sometimes we want to shoot a slow fire group.

We obviously don’t do those sorts of things in matches. I think that we should not condemn an idea like marking the exact center of the target as a poor idea just because it is unlike what we do in a match. We need to recognize that “training tools” have value.

[Magnus DUX]

Pharaoh Bender, on Oct 2 2009, 01:25 AM, said:

Audifn, on Oct 1 2009, 11:03 PM, said:

I'm expecting quite a lecture when the GF gets home and tries to park in the garage...

Train her early and often: The garage is for dryfiring and NOT parking

My wife is getting used that our living room is for dryfiring. I am just not allowed to do that when "So U think U can dance " is on TV. I can live with that.

[Micah]

After reading all of the tremendously good information HERE, I wanted to post a link in my dryfire thread with Ben's. Simply amazing Ben, and I have got to give you a big applause for all of the work that you put in to that presentation. The training that you provide there is worth its weight in gold.

People that say that dryfire is a waste of time are not worth yours. Don't take my word for it...ask the multiple Nationals top 5 competitor Ben Stoeger.

[Corey]

This is why Im really glad I joined this forum. Between this post the Link to Ben's program, I think Ill have plenty to keep me busy this winter. Just gotta figure out how Im going to set up my house for some drills (one of the benefits of having a 3br house to myself ).

For those who have the smaller targets, could you possibly post a link or just PM me the info on where you got them? Ive got full size IPSC targets, but i like the idea of smaller ones to simulate longer shots, as well as the idea of having a smaller target to train my eyes for transitions.

[Chris Keen]

The smaller targets can be found at www.CPWSA.com, or can be printed out on your computer with regular paper (do a search for printable targets on the web).

In the meantime, dryfire using regular objects in your house as targets - light-switches, door-knobs, cabinet door-knobs, pictures on the wall, etc. And when that becomes too easy you can make your "targets" smaller - Light-switch screws, the lower-left corner of a picture, etc.

[boz1911]

I hate that's it so friggin cold, I can't dryfire. It's 15 degrees this morning and my garage (where everything is set up) is like being in a freezer. I know I could practice shooting the light switches but it's not the same as shooting my little mini-targets......I feel like I live up North instead of Georgia.

[jkatz44]

Pharaoh Bender, on Nov 20 2009, 06:39 PM, said:

After reading all of the tremendously good information HERE, I wanted to post a link in my dryfire thread with Ben's. Simply amazing Ben, and I have got to give you a big applause for all of the work that you put in to that presentation. The training that you provide there is worth its weight in gold.

People that say that dryfire is a waste of time are not worth yours. Don't take my word for it...ask the multiple Nationals top 5 competitor Ben Stoeger.

PB,

Do you use only one white paster in the upper a zone? It looks like 2.

[Corey]

boz1911, on 09 January 2010 - 04:26 AM, said:

I hate that's it so friggin cold, I can't dryfire. It's 15 degrees this morning and my garage (where everything is set up) is like being in a freezer. I know I could practice shooting the light switches but it's not the same as shooting my little mini-targets......I feel like I live up North instead of Georgia.

Thats why i have my targets stuck to the living room wall

[Micah]

boz1911, on 09 January 2010 - 04:26 AM, said:

I hate that's it so friggin cold, I can't dryfire. It's 15 degrees this morning and my garage (where everything is set up) is like being in a freezer.

I have a space heater that I turn on 20 minutes before I hit the garage. It's not 60 degrees when I begin dryfiring, but living here in Ohio, we shoot plenty of matches when it is cold.

jkatz44, on 09 January 2010 - 06:18 AM, said:

Do you use only one white paster in the upper a zone? It looks like 2.

I use two in the upper portion of the lower A zone. The rectangular shape that two pasters form aids in simulating the lower A zone of metric targets.

[ninemmbill]

Good stuff. You have quite the set up there. Keep up the work.

[Micah]

ninemmbill, on 09 February 2010 - 09:58 AM, said:

Good stuff. You have quite the set up there. Keep up the work.

Thanks The thing is...anyone with a garage or a little room can set up something comparable. Although I had nowhere near the room, and nowhere near the setup, I was still able to practice MANY of the fundamentals in the 1 bedroom apartment that I lived in before buying a house.

[Bollis]

I can recomend the software Target Express, there you can find all IPSC targets, poppers, classics and metrics. You can scale the targets for any distance and then print it out in your printer.
Target Express

Br. Tom

[boz1911]

Corey, on 19 January 2010 - 03:36 PM, said:

boz1911, on 09 January 2010 - 04:26 AM, said:

I hate that's it so friggin cold, I can't dryfire. It's 15 degrees this morning and my garage (where everything is set up) is like being in a freezer. I know I could practice shooting the light switches but it's not the same as shooting my little mini-targets......I feel like I live up North instead of Georgia.

Thats why i have my targets stuck to the living room wall

That would violate our code of ethics. She don't put no sh#t in my garage, and I keep all my sh%t in the garage.

[4Baldy]

Some very good information and thanks for sharing the video with us. Your points are well taken.