[kgunz11]

A lot of DQ's in the Open Nats... anyone got any details?

[XD Niner]

kgunz11, on Sep 20 2009, 11:36 PM, said:

A lot of DQ's in the Open Nats... anyone got any details?

We had one squad mate who dropped his gun after he had cleared it, dropped the hammer and was in the midst of holstering it but before the RO could call "Range Clear". The muzzle broke the 180 and he picked it up in addition. I guess if you're going to get DQ'd you might as well go for the trifecta.

This post has been edited by XD Niner: 20 September 2009 - 08:56 PM

[Neomet]

kgunz11, on Sep 20 2009, 09:36 PM, said:

A lot of DQ's in the Open Nats... anyone got any details?

Quite a few on a single stage as I hear it. Shooters started facing uprange and turned to engage steel. DQs on the 180. An unusually high number.

[kgunz11]

Neomet, on Sep 21 2009, 12:00 AM, said:

kgunz11, on Sep 20 2009, 09:36 PM, said:

A lot of DQ's in the Open Nats... anyone got any details?

Quite a few on a single stage as I hear it. Shooters started facing uprange and turned to engage steel. DQs on the 180. An unusually high number.

Maybe one day video will be admissible in arbitration. A camera set up on a tripod at the 180 might catch a lot.

[JThompson]

Neomet, on Sep 20 2009, 11:00 PM, said:

kgunz11, on Sep 20 2009, 09:36 PM, said:

A lot of DQ's in the Open Nats... anyone got any details?

Quite a few on a single stage as I hear it. Shooters started facing uprange and turned to engage steel. DQs on the 180. An unusually high number.

Ya I watched Chris's videos and that was my comment. It looked like some were pretty close. Ah well, you have to control your muzzle.....

[Jadeslade]

kgunz11, on Sep 21 2009, 12:03 AM, said:

Neomet, on Sep 21 2009, 12:00 AM, said:

kgunz11, on Sep 20 2009, 09:36 PM, said:

A lot of DQ's in the Open Nats... anyone got any details?

Quite a few on a single stage as I hear it. Shooters started facing uprange and turned to engage steel. DQs on the 180. An unusually high number.

Maybe one day video will be admissible in arbitration. A camera set up on a tripod at the 180 might catch a lot.

Yeah- video doesn't usually lie. What stage was that?

[BritinUSA]

Jadeslade, on Sep 20 2009, 10:15 PM, said:

Yeah- video doesn't usually lie. What stage was that?

Stage 11. I don't know how many DQ's happened on that stage, perhaps someone has the info.

[jasmap]

BritinUSA, on Sep 20 2009, 09:28 PM, said:

Jadeslade, on Sep 20 2009, 10:15 PM, said:

Yeah- video doesn't usually lie. What stage was that?

Stage 11. I don't know how many DQ's happened on that stage, perhaps someone has the info.

Yep, Stage 11. I don't know the official number on that stage but my understanding is it was A LOT though. I'd be surprised if it wasn't the most DQ's on a single stage in the USPSA Nationals history. I know one of the DQ'd people very well.

[G-ManBart]

jasmap, on Sep 21 2009, 12:46 AM, said:

BritinUSA, on Sep 20 2009, 09:28 PM, said:

Jadeslade, on Sep 20 2009, 10:15 PM, said:

Yeah- video doesn't usually lie. What stage was that?

Stage 11. I don't know how many DQ's happened on that stage, perhaps someone has the info.

Yep, Stage 11. I don't know the official number on that stage but my understanding is it was A LOT though. I'd be surprised if it wasn't the most DQ's on a single stage in the USPSA Nationals history. I know one of the DQ'd people very well.

Yeah, I couldn't quite figure out why that stage bit so many folks. It wasn't like there was an incentive to get the gun out any earlier than any other turning draw since you had a step or two after the turn to be able to see the poppers on either side.

We were on stage 10 and heard the RO yell "STOP" over on 11...ouch. We heard who it was and it surprised me. I made extra certain I was all the way around before I drew the gun and it didn't slow me down as I was stepping while the gun was coming up. R,

This post has been edited by G-ManBart: 20 September 2009 - 10:17 PM

[HI5-O]

One of the RO's on that stage stood really close to the 180 and his presence was distracting to say the least.

Heard part of the problem some shooters had was the placement and cant of their holster, so on the draw the muzzle was already close or broke the 180 as they turned.

Just my 2 cents.

[joecichlid]

HI5-O, on Sep 21 2009, 12:48 AM, said:

One of the RO's on that stage stood really close to the 180 and his presence was distracting to say the least.

Heard part of the problem some shooters had was the placement and cant of their holster, so on the draw the muzzle was already close or broke the 180 as they turned.

Just my 2 cents.

I have to agree, with him standing right at the 180 line it was very distracting. I made sure to be well beyond the 180 before I drew my gun on that stage.

Joe W.

[Chuck Anderson]

Video does lie. Or at least the use of it can be very deceptive. For example on this stage. If a competitor/spectator was filming they wouldn't have been able to be at the 180 so the perspective would have been off. The other alternative would be to have a stage camera prepositioned on the 180. Two problems. First why? The 180 couldn't be arbed anyway and are we going to do that for every stage at a match? It'd be like instant replay in sports. If you allow video to come in makes it almost necessary for everyone to have video rolling on all their runs.

Like I said at the start though. I've seen video of runs I've watched where the was a clear 180 break but the video made it look like it wasn't. I've also seen the opposite.

In this case the stage was laid at an angle to the corner of a berm which might have been a bit unusual for some people. Also having an RO on the 180 line might have been a bit confusing for some newer competitors. It's been pretty standard practice for this rather common type of stage at many Nationals. That position puts him in the best spot to catch any safety issues on the draw.

[Steve J]

http://www.youtube.c...rch_type=videos

Several good videos from different perspectives. It certainly wasn't a trick or trap stage. Stage design wasn't the problem it would seem.

[AWLAZS]

People tried to add a step to the side while they were turning and it messed their timing up

[davecutts]

Mistral404, on Sep 17 2009, 11:32 PM, said:

...

Was there a stage with 11 DQs? Something is seriously wrong here! With the exception of that stage, the ROs did a good job.

...

There is nothing wrong there, just because 11 people can't turn THEN draw.

[hf219]

I would like to commend Nick Santiago for the sportsmanship, profesionalism, integrity and diginity that he displayed after being DQ'd on stage 6. Nick was DQ'd on a previous stage to the one I was working, warranted or not, he stayed with his squad, taped, painted and set steel. Nick I commend you on your actions after the fact, many a shooter with more time behind the trigger and life itself have failed to go on after a DQ. GOOD FOR YOU! Thats the kind of actions our younger generation need to be shown, taught, instilled and trained in. Thanks Nick it was a pleasure having you on our stage. H!

[JThompson]

AWLAZS, on Sep 21 2009, 08:50 AM, said:

People tried to add a step to the side while they were turning and it messed their timing up

If they would have pushed it deeper into the bay and had a little deeper box may have helped a bit too. I know having the gallery just off the 180 is a bit of a pucker factor, but it's easy to second guess after the fact. I know I was glad to see the changed the order of poppers for the Limited match. Driving down poppers outside is not a good idea.

JT

[The Antichrome]

I was told that if they saw the trigger guard exposed before 180 they called it...apparently some people thought the muzzle would have to be exposed.

A side note;
Another RO on another stage said they had an unusually high number of dropped guns, mostly on walk thrus.
They didnt result in DQ's. It was a sitting start.
They also had some dropped guns with people fiddling around with their gun covers / shower caps, etc.

[BritinUSA]

10.5.2
If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or not (limited exceptions: 10.5.6).

I see no reference to a trigger guard. In many holsters part of the trigger guard is exposed, it is the trigger that has to be fully covered, isn't it?

[Alan Meek]

BritinUSA, on Sep 21 2009, 12:34 PM, said:

10.5.2
If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or not (limited exceptions: 10.5.6).

I see no reference to a trigger guard. In many holsters part of the trigger guard is exposed, it is the trigger that has to be fully covered, isn't it?

From the NROI Rulings

NROI Rulings
Title: Drawing a handgun while facing uprange
Created: 11/11/08
Updated: 11/18/08
Effective: 11/18/08
Rule number: 10.5.16
Applies to: Pistol
Ruling authority: John Amidon
Status: Released

Question
The glossary in Appendix A3 gives the definition of facing uprange as "face and feet pointing straight uprange with shoulders parrell to the 90-degree median intercept of the back-stop. so if on the start signal my eyes turn towards the direction I am turning and my shoulders and feet are no longer in the their original position, am I considered to no longer being facing uprange and may draw my handgun without violating 10.5.16

Ruling
In order to assure consistent application of this rule, the following shall apply: After the start signal, regardless of the type of holster used, access to the trigger is prohibited until the competitor has rotated his body sufficiently to cause the holster's muzzle line to have passed through the point which represents "90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop".

[BritinUSA]

Alan Meek, on Sep 21 2009, 10:51 AM, said:

Ruling
In order to assure consistent application of this rule, the following shall apply: After the start signal, regardless of the type of holster used, access to the trigger is prohibited until the competitor has rotated his body sufficiently to cause the holster's muzzle line to have passed through the point which represents "90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop".

Thanks for posting that, but it does not mention the trigger guard. Most of the trigger guard would have to be visible before the shooter can get their finger inside to press the trigger, therefore just seeing the trigger guard is not grounds for a DQ, at least that's my understanding. As I stated, with many holsters part of the trigger guard is still visible when the gun is completely locked in.

[ammowaster]

We watched one guy doing a "accelerated walkthrough" (I think that is what is was called)

RO took him up to the line and had him un bag his gun. Gun was holstered and RO said to let him know when he was ready. Shooter drew his gun and took a sight picture. DQ'ed because the make ready command had not been given.

I cant remember what stage but it was one of the first few. I felt bad for the guy

[pas44]

ammowaster, on Sep 21 2009, 02:39 PM, said:

We watched one guy doing a "accelerated walkthrough" (I think that is what is was called)

RO took him up to the line and had him un bag his gun. Gun was holstered and RO said to let him know when he was ready. Shooter drew his gun and took a sight picture. DQ'ed because the make ready command had not been given.

I cant remember what stage but it was one of the first few. I felt bad for the guy

What?! Sounds like a bit of confusion to me.

[Joe4d]

ammowaster, on Sep 21 2009, 02:39 PM, said:

We watched one guy doing a "accelerated walkthrough" (I think that is what is was called)

RO took him up to the line and had him un bag his gun. Gun was holstered and RO said to let him know when he was ready. Shooter drew his gun and took a sight picture. DQ'ed because the make ready command had not been given.

I cant remember what stage but it was one of the first few. I felt bad for the guy

If the above description is accurate I would have challenged that one. RO with shooter on the line should either keep his mouth shut, say make ready, or put a big hand up in front of shooter clearly indicating what he is saying isnt "Make Ready" We have non english speaking, non native english speaking, and hard of hearing folks wearing plugs and muffs, If an RO comes up and sayss, bla lblah ready, I would expect that to be the Make ready command,

[Jadeslade]

What Joe4d said.