[G-ManBart]

This is a spinoff from the M&P DOH question I had in the gear/equipment area. Mods, if that should have been moved here, please correct as you feel proper.

The current rules say that the distance from the gun to the inside of the belt can't exceed 2". What if you're running an inner/outer belt? The pictures in the appendix show the measurement being taken from the inside of the inner belt (of an inner/outer setup), but the rule doesn't break down inner/outer etc. So, is the inner belt or the outer belt the "belt" according to the rule? It would seem that the outer belt is the actual gun belt and the inner belt is an attachment, but I'm sure you could argue that it's one system, so the inner of the two is the proper point to measure from. Anybody know for sure?

I'm asking because my holster (Blade-Tech DOH Sting Ray for M&P Pro) is fine if you measure from the gun to the inside of the outer belt, but it's maybe 1/4" over the limit if you measure to the inside of the inner belt. I'm going to try and fix it so it's within 2" either way, but some clarification would be helpful just in case. No, I haven't used this setup in a match yet, but plan to do so before long and want to be 100% legal. R,

[JThompson]

My understanding is the inner GMAN.

5.2.5 Where a Division specifies a maximum distance that a competitor’s
handgun and equipment may extend away from a competitor’s belt, the
measurement shall be taken in the following manner:
— perpendicular to the belt at the point of attachment to the belt
— from the inner most surface of the belt equipment (against the
pants/body) to the nearest body-side surface of the handgun and/or any
reloading device.

This post has been edited by JThompson: 19 September 2009 - 10:25 PM

[jasmap]

Good question. The photos in the rules even specifically state "The measurements displayed below are for illustrative purposes only and do not reflect the maximum allowed."

Well JT may have just covered it. I'm guessing John could give a firm definitive answer.

This post has been edited by jasmap: 19 September 2009 - 10:27 PM

[G-ManBart]

JThompson, on Sep 20 2009, 01:23 AM, said:

My understanding is the inner GMAN.

5.2.5 Where a Division specifies a maximum distance that a competitor’s
handgun and equipment may extend away from a competitor’s belt, the
measurement shall be taken in the following manner:
— perpendicular to the belt at the point of attachment to the belt
— from the inner most surface of the belt equipment (against the
pants/body) to the nearest body-side surface of the handgun and/or any
reloading device.

Yeah, I've always understood it to be the inner side of the inner belt, but even the description above is slightly vague, i.e. the inner side of the "belt equipment". That certainly sounds like the inner belt should be part of the "belt equipment", but I figured it might be a good idea to ask...maybe worth a ruling or a slight clarification for the next time they update the rules. R,

[JThompson]

G-ManBart, on Sep 19 2009, 11:28 PM, said:

JThompson, on Sep 20 2009, 01:23 AM, said:

My understanding is the inner GMAN.

5.2.5 Where a Division specifies a maximum distance that a competitor’s
handgun and equipment may extend away from a competitor’s belt, the
measurement shall be taken in the following manner:
— perpendicular to the belt at the point of attachment to the belt
— from the inner most surface of the belt equipment (against the
pants/body) to the nearest body-side surface of the handgun and/or any
reloading device.

Yeah, I've always understood it to be the inner side of the inner belt, but even the description above is slightly vague, i.e. the inner side of the "belt equipment". That certainly sounds like the inner belt should be part of the "belt equipment", but I figured it might be a good idea to ask...maybe worth a ruling or a slight clarification for the next time they update the rules. R,

Send John an email if ya like... he's real good about getting back to you.

[Alfie]

JThompson, on Sep 20 2009, 01:31 AM, said:

Send John an email if ya like... he's real good about getting back to you.

When he does get back to you can you post his responce? Inquiring minds want to know!!!

[wgnoyes]

The rule is clear.

Quote

from the inner most surface of the belt equipment (against the pants/body) to the nearest body-side surface of the handgun and/or any reloading device.

And since there's even a picture to go with it showing an inner/outer belt rig, you measure from the inner belt.

[Sarge]

I don't buy it. The DOH is used by thousands of shooters. There ain't a whole lot of DIY adjustments that can be made. The rig is USPSA legal so I am guessing it has already been looked at extensively by the rule makers. And as argued in other threads you can wear the outer belt alone if you wish as long as it is tight around your waist. That argument alone tells me the inner belt is not a direct part of the belt. The DOH has been around for a while now so I think we would have heard if folks were running into problems at major matches by now. Hell, you can even overlap the belts and get the gun way off your hip.
I, for one, contend it is measured from the inner edge of the outer belt.

[ChuckS]

I really don't see why the measurement is confusing. Here's the pic from the rule book:
 HolsterPosition.jpg (16.45K)
Number of downloads: 66

E2 says that this measurement is ~ 1 5/8". You can see from the tape that that point is the inside of the inner belt.


Sounds to me like BT screwed the pooch when it comes to USPSA/DOH/M&P.


ETA: I run a DOH with an SP-01 so I am also a bit surprised by this but 2" is 2".

This post has been edited by ChuckS: 20 September 2009 - 08:02 AM

[G-ManBart]

wgnoyes, on Sep 20 2009, 10:23 AM, said:

The rule is clear.

Quote

from the inner most surface of the belt equipment (against the pants/body) to the nearest body-side surface of the handgun and/or any reloading device.

And since there's even a picture to go with it showing an inner/outer belt rig, you measure from the inner belt.

If it were clear there wouldn't be a bunch of folks in other threads talking about it being to the inner side of the outer belt

They say the picture is an example and isn't binding. It's like the difference between what you know a stage designer meant, and what they put in the WSB. The rule, as written is binding, not the picture.

I'm asking because clearly lots and lots of folks think their holster is legal when it really might not be, because I've heard the same thing about inner versus outer belts, how to layer your belts differently to game it etc, etc. I know what I'm seeing on my DOH and I've heard the Glock version is similar.

In my mind some of the confusion is due to the fact that they specifically mention "belt or inner belt" in an earlier section (think it was 5.2.3). Not sure why they couldn't have added that bit or qualified the "belt equipment" phrase which isn't used commonly, if at all, elsewhere. R,

This post has been edited by G-ManBart: 20 September 2009 - 08:56 AM

[ChuckS]

The books says: "The measurements displayed below are for illustrative purposes only and do not
reflect the maximum allowed."

I am pretty sure that the statement is there because someone would say "Hey, WTF, 1 & 5/8???? D1 says 2 inches"

All they are doing are indicating that the measured distance in the picture is not the maximum allowed by D1!

And I have yet to find anything about "binding" in E2.

Sorry, still clear...

And I am not sure about lots and lots of folks but if they have not checked compliance with the rule, like you did, shame on them.

[G-ManBart]

ChuckS, on Sep 20 2009, 12:02 PM, said:

The books says: "The measurements displayed below are for illustrative purposes only and do not
reflect the maximum allowed."

I am pretty sure that the statement is there because someone would say "Hey, WTF, 1 & 5/8???? D1 says 2 inches"

All they are doing are indicating that the measured distance in the picture is not the maximum allowed by D1!

And I have yet to find anything about "binding" in E2.

Sorry, still clear...

And I am not sure about lots and lots of folks but if they have not checked compliance with the rule, like you did, shame on them.

Great, you think it's clear, I'm happy for you I don't think it's clear and others don't think it's clear. I have an opinion (which is the same as what you're saying), but my opinion and your opinion don't matter.

Please, let's not make this a battle of the quotes ....I wasn't cutting and pasting or quoting the rule verbatim. "Binding" was my word, which is why I didn't use quotes around it.

They clearly say the picture is for illustrative purposes, which means it's an example, not the definition of the rule. The "rule" is simply the written text, and nothing else, unless specified. Yes, they're saying the indicated distance isn't the maximum allowed, but that doesn't mean that they ARE indicating anything else with the picture because they don't say they are...that part is your assumption, which is probably correct, but it's still an assumption.

They specify inner versus outer belts in other part of the rules, so I don't know why they would change to "belt equipment" without defining what that entails. Logically, I think it should include the inner belt, but until that has been spelled out, it's open to question.

Again, I think it says what you think it says, I just know there have been enough questions about it that there's no doubt in my mind people are running around with holsters that put their gun slightly outside of 2" if the reports on the Glock and M&P (maybe others as well?) versions of the DOH are accurate. It's probably easy enough to fix and it's something Blade-Tech should be made aware of so they can offer a holster that's legal out of the box, which I'm sure is their intent.

I'm sending John an e-mail now and will report back what he says. R,

[ChuckS]

G-ManBart, on Sep 20 2009, 09:50 AM, said:

I'm sending John an e-mail now and will report back what he says. R,

Perfect

[Nik Habicht]

sandman, on Sep 20 2009, 10:38 AM, said:

I don't buy it. The DOH is used by thousands of shooters. There ain't a whole lot of DIY adjustments that can be made. The rig is USPSA legal so I am guessing it has already been looked at extensively by the rule makers. And as argued in other threads you can wear the outer belt alone if you wish as long as it is tight around your waist. That argument alone tells me the inner belt is not a direct part of the belt. The DOH has been around for a while now so I think we would have heard if folks were running into problems at major matches by now. Hell, you can even overlap the belts and get the gun way off your hip.
I, for one, contend it is measured from the inner edge of the outer belt.

You keep contending all you like......

....and we'll continue to measure form the inside of the belt next to your body.....

.....going from the inside of the inner belt, if you use one; from the inside of the outer belt if you don't......

....at least until there's an official interpretation issued to tell us to do it differently.....

A bunch of us argued pretty hard to get the distance increased to 2" during the last rulebook revision specifically to preserve the DOH. (An earlier draft had it down to 1.xx") That doesn't necessarily mean that every manufacturer's DOH is going to be legal, or that the DOH for every gun is going to be legal. That responsibility remains with the shooter....

If you're close to the line, you might need to bend some kydex or try a different holster....

I suspect "Belt equipment" got used because not every USPSA shooter uses a two-piece belt system.....

[eerw]

I did not realize that all the divisions had that same distance restrictions..
guess I have been shooting production and single stack too long.
guess I better measure my open holster.

This post has been edited by eerw: 20 September 2009 - 11:00 AM

[wgnoyes]

Quote

from the inner most surface of the belt equipment (against the pants/body) to the nearest body-side surface of the handgun and/or any reloading device.

The rule is clear. You're supposed to measure from the inside surface of the inner belt, because the inner belt, NOT the outer belt, is the only belt that can possibly be "against the pants/body".

And I had to take a whole extension bracket off of my production-legal bladetech and hang the holster directly off of the belt part to make it legal.

But please, go ahead and ask John Amidon; he'll tell you what we're already saying.

[G-ManBart]

wgnoyes, on Sep 20 2009, 02:14 PM, said:

Quote

from the inner most surface of the belt equipment (against the pants/body) to the nearest body-side surface of the handgun and/or any reloading device.

The rule is clear. You're supposed to measure from the inside surface of the inner belt, because the inner belt, NOT the outer belt, is the only belt that can possibly be "against the pants/body".

And I had to take a whole extension bracket off of my production-legal bladetech and hang the holster directly off of the belt part to make it legal.

But please, go ahead and ask John Amidon; he'll tell you what we're already saying.

If the rule was really clear there wouldn't be anybody with doubts and there are a LOT of folks that seem to question this....look at all the different threads there have been on this topic and it's obvious that not everybody is clear on it.

They don't say "from the inside of the inner belt, or the inside of the inner belt, they say inner most side of the belt equipment. Someone could argue that there is only one "belt" and that's the thing you attach the gun and mag pouches to. So, in that case, the inner most side of the belt would be the outer belt. Granted, that's a stretch, but I've seen sillier things suggested.

My opinion is that it means just what you're saying it means, but it's not a bad idea to get a ruling and make it concrete.

So, for the folks jumping on me saying I'm trying to say the rules mean this or that, I'm not. I'm asking for a very specific clarification to remomve any doubt because plenty of folks are not sure how this works and I KNOW there are a lot of folks out there with holsters that don't comply. I measured mine, and others have talked about Glock and M&P DOH's not meeting the 2" rule, so probably a good percentage of the folks who have them never measured and are in violation...and those are the two most common holster setups I've seen being shot in Production now. It seems like folks, including competitors and RO's think "oh, it's a Blade-Tech DOH those are legal". Well, maybe they are and maybe they aren't....didn't see any of them get checked at Nationals, but they should be right? R,

This post has been edited by G-ManBart: 20 September 2009 - 12:52 PM

[jasmap]

wgnoyes, on Sep 20 2009, 11:14 AM, said:

Quote

from the inner most surface of the belt equipment (against the pants/body) to the nearest body-side surface of the handgun and/or any reloading device.

The rule is clear. You're supposed to measure from the inside surface of the inner belt, because the inner belt, NOT the outer belt, is the only belt that can possibly be "against the pants/body".

And I had to take a whole extension bracket off of my production-legal bladetech and hang the holster directly off of the belt part to make it legal.

But please, go ahead and ask John Amidon; he'll tell you what we're already saying.

Calm down. He's agreeing with you. He just simply wants it clarified because there IS some confusion....maybe not to you but there is some. He's saying he thinks you're right.

[Sarge]

wgnoyes, on Sep 20 2009, 02:14 PM, said:

Quote

from the inner most surface of the belt equipment (against the pants/body) to the nearest body-side surface of the handgun and/or any reloading device.

The rule is clear. You're supposed to measure from the inside surface of the inner belt, because the inner belt, NOT the outer belt, is the only belt that can possibly be "against the pants/body".

And I had to take a whole extension bracket off of my production-legal bladetech and hang the holster directly off of the belt part to make it legal.

But please, go ahead and ask John Amidon; he'll tell you what we're already saying.

Not really true since the outer belt can be worn alone. Also it could be argued that the belt loops are part of the pants and the outer belt does touch them.

[JThompson]

edit

This post has been edited by JThompson: 20 September 2009 - 03:17 PM

[G-ManBart]

sandman, on Sep 20 2009, 05:46 PM, said:

Also it could be argued that the belt loops are part of the pants and the outer belt does touch them.

Gamer!

[wgnoyes]

sandman, on Sep 20 2009, 05:46 PM, said:

Not really true since the outer belt can be worn alone. Also it could be argued that the belt loops are part of the pants and the outer belt does touch them.

??? So if you're just wearing the outer belt and not the inner belt, then you only have one belt to consider in measuring distance, so.....

And belt loops? Tell you what. You try that argument with the range master at an Area Championship or Nationals, but please do tell me you're going to do it ahead of time, so I can be sure to have a front row seat for the entertainment!

[Sarge]

Will do!

[G-ManBart]

I got an e-mail back from John A. today. He wouldn't/didn't define "belt equipment", but he very clearly stated that they measure from the inside of the inner belt. R,

[ima45dv8]

My personal view/opinion of "belt equipment" was solidified the day Singlestack told me he was considering manufacturing a curved "shim" that would ride inside the belt to provide an additional offset to the holster. It was to be a curved wedge that fits between the inner belt surface and the competitor's clothing. He made some reference to calling it the, "Ninga Wedgie" or something.

Asked to consider the legality of it, and seeing that it would be right up against the inner belt and placed there for no other reason than to make the belt and holster stick out further from the shooters body, I said I would find it to be part of the belt system, if serving in an official match capacity (RM, CRO, etc.).

Now, he must have read this thread a little while ago because he asked me, "What if it was worn inside the competitor's pants?" In that case, I would find it not to be part of the "belt system", and simply an asinine way to game a restriction in search of a hardware fix to a software problem. I also promised to take pictures and publish them coast-to-coast showing he didn't know exactly where to place the clearly-falsified 'Girl Gittah' into his jeans.