[Big Guy]

Just came back from the Open/Production Nationals and see that lot of the shooters are also shooting the Limited/Lim 10 Nationals.

My question is, how fair is it to have the Lim/Lim 10 only shooters compete against shooters that have previously shot the same stage during the Open/Production event?

[Al Capizzo]

The stages will be changed up a little bit, but surely it is still nice if you've shot a "very similar" course just a few days before.
I can't imagine the work and logistics of setting up to REALLY separate national events though.

[Chris Keen]

Mario the fair part is that you (any of you out there) can shoot BOTH Nationals Back-to-Back if you want to. I was doing it to shoot with a friend of mine from Ohio during the Open Nats, but he backed out at the last minute. That made it hard to change my plans at the last minute (Match fee penalties, plane ticket penalties, etc.) but I committed to it, so I just went ahead and did it.

I see your point, but then again things can go wrong at any moment. Someone could have a bad stage, or a reshoot, or even DQ. Doesnt mean it will, but it could.

But it should be a benefit to see the stages once, and then shoot them again with the same gun. They only changed about 4 stages dramatically. Stage 7, with the Texas Star now starts spinning when you open the window, and they removed the hard-cover poppers. Stage 11 now the BIG POPPERS are behind the little ones, so 2 shots on either side and your done. Stage 14 which was semi-circular now has a different order of targets in the back. Stage 15 now has a vision barrier in the large window and the little poppers were moved to the outside of the big ones.

This post has been edited by Chris Keen: 17 September 2009 - 07:00 PM

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: I think it would be an advantage if you are shootinng the same plateform of pistol like say a Glock for both. But if you shoot a Glock in the Production and a STI 2011 in the Limited it may actually not work out that well. It does help to know what the terrain is like and some of the props are like. Thanks, Eric

[Nik Habicht]

I must say, my favorite Nationals to date was the five day, 24 stage affair in Barry in 2004 --- all divisions shot the same match at the same time. It was a huge carnival atmosphere.....

Apparently however, I was in the minority --- most seem to prefer a set of back-to-back 3 day events....

[Gwhiz]

+1 on the big all in one nationals!

[blownhemi]

Probably get more entry fees (higher profit margin?) running them back to back seeing many shooters double up. This is probably a good thing because it adds to the profitability of running a big match. I'd love to shoot two divisions at the nationals but we run our as a just a big all in one affair.

[Chris Keen]

Gwhiz, on Sep 17 2009, 11:34 PM, said:

+1 on the big all in one nationals!

Same here. Run what you brung, and let's see what ya got!

[JThompson]

If they are going to keep doing it this way I see no problem with it, just switch which divisions go first, but yes, for a guy shooting only once, there is a huge add to shooting a stage twice.

[Big Guy]

Chris Keen, on Sep 18 2009, 12:26 AM, said:

Same here. Run what you brung, and let's see what ya got!

[Steve J]

Let Limited and Open go "back to back" and have a separate large factory gun nationals for Production, Revolver and 1911 "Single Stack" divisions.

[Nik Habicht]

Steve J, on Sep 18 2009, 07:16 AM, said:

Let Limited and Open go "back to back" and have a separate large factory gun nationals for Production, Revolver and 1911 "Single Stack" divisions.

I don't think that'll happen again --- the last time cost USPSA some serious cash.....

[Matt Cheely]

They haven't changed the stages very much.

There's not much advantage in having shot the first time around. The stages are simple enough to figure out, and we end up shooting them the same way as we did the first time. It's not going to change the results for the top guys.

[bkeeler]

Gwhiz, on Sep 17 2009, 10:34 PM, said:

+1 on the big all in one nationals!

BK

[JimmyZip]

Nik Habicht, on Sep 18 2009, 08:51 AM, said:

Steve J, on Sep 18 2009, 07:16 AM, said:

Let Limited and Open go "back to back" and have a separate large factory gun nationals for Production, Revolver and 1911 "Single Stack" divisions.

I don't think that'll happen again --- the last time cost USPSA some serious cash.....

How come?

[outerlimits]

at the 2003 back-to-back nationals in bend, most of the stages were changed. some subtle, others quite a bit. the standards that year were at 15 yds for limited, 30 yds for open. paper was replaced with poppers on another stage, and arrays of targets were changed on others. i remember that crazy one you ran through a door and in limited, shot 4 stationary targets out to about 15 yds, but for open, all four were swingers surrounded by no-shoots. so for that back-to-back, it was definitely different.

[Nik Habicht]

JimmyZip, on Sep 18 2009, 02:02 PM, said:

Nik Habicht, on Sep 18 2009, 08:51 AM, said:

Steve J, on Sep 18 2009, 07:16 AM, said:

Let Limited and Open go "back to back" and have a separate large factory gun nationals for Production, Revolver and 1911 "Single Stack" divisions.

I don't think that'll happen again --- the last time cost USPSA some serious cash.....

How come?

IIRC --- and we're talking about 2002 or 2003, the matches didn't fill, which meant that USPSA had to dip into its bank accounts to pay all of the bills associated with putting on four National matches: Back-to-back Open and Limited (in Bend, I think), and back-to-back Factory and Multi-gun Nats (in Barry, I think.)

The Bylaws were changed as a result of the financial impact of that year's matches....

Bottom line: Nats are expensive, more expensive that area/sectional matches. For an Area/Sectional match you can usually recruit a good portion of the staff locally, meaning you don't have housing, per diem, and travel expenses to pay. For a Nationals event, most of the staff is imported; USPSA has a history of buying items for the prize table, often props and supplies/other infrastructure improvements need to be paid for at the host range/club....

[Chuck Anderson]

I would definitely say that it's an advantage on some stages and a disadvantage on others. I saw several guys on my squad doing silly things based on the last match. For example on Stage 10 it was an unloaded gun start compared to a loaded gun start on this match. One of the shooters on my squad set his gun on the table empty. On a couple of the other stages there are subtly different and better ways to shoot than last match. If you just go with the old plan you might miss out. Overall I think it's a wash.

[JimmyZip]

Nik Habicht, on Sep 18 2009, 12:23 PM, said:

JimmyZip, on Sep 18 2009, 02:02 PM, said:

Nik Habicht, on Sep 18 2009, 08:51 AM, said:

Steve J, on Sep 18 2009, 07:16 AM, said:

Let Limited and Open go "back to back" and have a separate large factory gun nationals for Production, Revolver and 1911 "Single Stack" divisions.

I don't think that'll happen again --- the last time cost USPSA some serious cash.....

How come?

IIRC --- and we're talking about 2002 or 2003, the matches didn't fill, which meant that USPSA had to dip into its bank accounts to pay all of the bills associated with putting on four National matches: Back-to-back Open and Limited (in Bend, I think), and back-to-back Factory and Multi-gun Nats (in Barry, I think.)

The Bylaws were changed as a result of the financial impact of that year's matches....

Bottom line: Nats are expensive, more expensive that area/sectional matches. For an Area/Sectional match you can usually recruit a good portion of the staff locally, meaning you don't have housing, per diem, and travel expenses to pay. For a Nationals event, most of the staff is imported; USPSA has a history of buying items for the prize table, often props and supplies/other infrastructure improvements need to be paid for at the host range/club....

Wow. Thanks.