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What do you do with your arms?

#1 User is offline   kimmie 

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 02:47 PM

I am by no means athletic - let me make that very clear :roflol: so, running for me is probably like strolling for most others. But, I am trying to pick up my speed just a bit seeing that that second or two really does make a difference in scores. My question is where do you position your arms and the gun when running? And how do you stabilize your arms and the gun? I know that on short transitions you don't want to drop your arms. I've been told a couple of times I look like I'm 'conducting the band' when running (I use that word very loosely). I've tried to watch others and look at the videos available but I can't quite see what folks are doing. Do you pull the gun into your chest to stabilize it? Hold it out? Hold it with one hand and pump the other arm(can't see me moving fast enough to need to do that!) Should it be up to your eyes for better sight acquisition?

Any pointers greatly appreciated!

Donna

This post has been edited by kimmie: 17 September 2009 - 02:48 PM

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#2 User is offline   Classic_jon 

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 02:54 PM

I would say the basics would be as long as the gun is pointed in a safe direction and you don't cross a body part you should be golden. Beyond that, take a look at some of the vids of the top shooters on youtube and watch what they do and that should help.

I am by no means an expert on the rules in different shooting sports though so take what I am saying with a grain of the appropriate salt :)
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#3 User is offline   Duane Thomas 

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 04:14 PM

Keep the gun high. You're just going to have to bring it up to eye level again to shoot, so why add in all the movement of dropping it down around waist level, which is what most people do, when you're just going to have to bring it up again anyway?

Jerry Barnhart talks about "the Ready Position" which is the point in the draw where you've got the gun up in front of your face, but it's in a bit toward the face. This is where you bring the gun when it's up at eye level during the draw before you begin pressing it out toward the target, where you bring the gun during a speedload so you'll have more dexterity, and where you put the gun when moving.

As to whether or not to drop your support hand and use it to pump, or keep both hands on the gun, that's very much a personal choice. There are great shooters who do it both ways. Personally, once I've obtained a good two-handed grip I don't like releasing it unless absolutely necessary, so I tend to move with two hands on the gun. Some people drop the support hand and use it to chug during movement, but commit themselves to reacquiring the grip a set distance before the next shooting position, say, two steps before. Experiment with both, see what works best for you.

If you want a DVD you can watch that covers this topic well, I highly recommend Saul Kirsch's 3GM.
Pride and fear are emotions, which hope for an outcome. Outcomes take your attention from the present, where the shooting happens, to the future. It is totally impossible to do anything in the future, because it hasn't happened yet. The key to shooting your best is to be present as the witness of the shooting. Do not judge, do not give yourself anything to live up to. We can only shoot as well as we have trained ourselves to shoot. To try to shoot only induces stress. Be content with your current ability. And accumulate practice to improve that ability. Consolidate, build strength where you feel weakness. We cannot raise our ability until we accept our current limitations. Practice dissolves limitations. Matches simply define where the current limits exist. The game of shooting is all about redefining our limits.
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#4 User is offline   kimmie 

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 05:17 PM

Thanks - that makes sense. After doing this for about 5 years for just fun and being perfectly happy being a D shooter - I've decided to put a little more effort into it and try to move up. Video-ing myself has shown me just how much I need to work on :blink: and how many bad habits I've developed :angry2: Dropping the gun down has always been an issue. I've worked on it this summer and pretty much corrected it while doing transitions from array to array while standing in the same spot. Now I need to do it while 'running'.

After analyzing scores over the past few matches, I was amazed at how many spots down just a couple of seconds would put me. 2 seconds here, 2 seconds there - Wow!
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Posted 17 September 2009 - 07:03 PM

All the M and GM shooters I've ever seen shoot have exactly one thing in common: No wasted motion. Ever. What Duane mentioned is a prime example. Why bring the gun down from firing position when you're just going to have to bring it back up there?

BTW, Matt Burkett calls the area that Duane was talking about your "facebox". Your gun should be in your holster, in firing position, or in your facebox.
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#6 User is offline   lugnut 

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 07:52 PM

It depends on a lot of things for me. Going a short distance from left to right I'll keep both hands on the gun, bringing it in a bit, but keeping it high. Going right to left I separate my hands. Either way the gun should be high so that when you get the shooting position it needs to be pushed out a bit while acquiring the sights.

When I have a ways to go and I'm trying to haul ass my hands are separated and I cant the gun a bit and keep it at about my chest level- both arms move like you would while running but the gun hand goes forward and backward like a piston- with the muzzle pointed in the direction I'm going usually. When I slow down using my legs like a shock absorber the gun starts to go out and my support hand joins the gun.

I think one of the most important thing is the the gun should be in the ready postion just before you are ready to shoot.

This post has been edited by lugnut: 17 September 2009 - 07:54 PM


#7 User is offline   lugnut 

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 07:54 PM

View Postkimmie, on Sep 17 2009, 08:17 PM, said:

After analyzing scores over the past few matches, I was amazed at how many spots down just a couple of seconds would put me. 2 seconds here, 2 seconds there - Wow!


What separates the better shooters from the rest isn't always how well and how fast they shoot... it's what they do in between.

#8 User is offline   kimmie 

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 07:56 PM

View Postlugnut, on Sep 17 2009, 10:54 PM, said:

View Postkimmie, on Sep 17 2009, 08:17 PM, said:

After analyzing scores over the past few matches, I was amazed at how many spots down just a couple of seconds would put me. 2 seconds here, 2 seconds there - Wow!


What separates the better shooters from the rest isn't always how well and how fast they shoot... it's what they do in between.



Yes - I've found that to be true!

Thanks!
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Posted 18 September 2009 - 04:09 AM

Watch videos of the very best shooters and see what they do. Notice what they do the same. Notice what they do different. Wonder why. Figure it out. Apply it to yourself.
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Posted 18 September 2009 - 06:25 AM

If you ever get a chance to watch glenn higdon pay attention to how he moves from target to target. You very seldom see him ever stop. He will tell you it is a continous movement-always-when shooting. He is a tight package when transitioning from one target to another, his times are incredible when moving.

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 10:36 AM

All speed is, is economy of motion, the 'fast'/better shooters are doing more w/ less if that makes sense, do you still look down as you enter a box or shooting position??? the good ones are indexing the gun on target as they step intothe box...as for whatt o do w/ the arms, for me, 3 or fewer steps i keep both hands on the gun and the gun up in my vision, for what i call 'track meet' stages where the next position or area is yards away, i drop my weak hand, still keep the gun up in my vision and pointed in a safe direction and off to the races!!!!! 2 to 3 steps from the spot or box i want to be i slow up, gather my feet under me, re-establish my shooting grip forthe next series of targets....

#12 User is offline   kimmie 

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 12:25 PM

Thanks all. Really good advice. I especially like the 'facebox' reference, Revo. That will stick in my head, for sure!

I've realized that even though I'm not a 'runner' or athletic, I could be more 'efficient'. And I've realized that those wasted little seconds or two, are really 'big' in the end. Keeping my gun up, not looking down, not stopping between arrays - planning a little better where my feet should be, indexing a spot to shoot from - those things will help me move up. Definately. I need to figure out how to be the best within my abilities. And push those abilities.

Lugnut - I've watched you. And you are good. Your advice is excellent.

And watching the videos is a definate. I love watching Lisa Munson. The way she drives the gun is amazing. I've actually had classes with her and the other ladies, and seen them move, in person. So what's my problem???? I think it's like what's been said here a million times, the majority of shooting skill is MENTAL!!!!

We call Lisa 'might mouse' (don't tell!!!).

Next match - economy in motion!!!!!!!!

This post has been edited by kimmie: 18 September 2009 - 12:30 PM

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#13 User is offline   Duane Thomas 

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 12:50 PM

Quote

We call Lisa 'might mouse' (don't tell!!!).

Pretty sure she's heard that before. Along with "Super Smurf." :lol:
Pride and fear are emotions, which hope for an outcome. Outcomes take your attention from the present, where the shooting happens, to the future. It is totally impossible to do anything in the future, because it hasn't happened yet. The key to shooting your best is to be present as the witness of the shooting. Do not judge, do not give yourself anything to live up to. We can only shoot as well as we have trained ourselves to shoot. To try to shoot only induces stress. Be content with your current ability. And accumulate practice to improve that ability. Consolidate, build strength where you feel weakness. We cannot raise our ability until we accept our current limitations. Practice dissolves limitations. Matches simply define where the current limits exist. The game of shooting is all about redefining our limits.
- Sam

Amateurs do it til they get it right. Professionals do it til they can't get it wrong.

"It's not the will to win that matters - everyone has that. It's the will to prepare to win that matters."
- Paul "Bear" Bryant

"The only reason why Everest is the highest mountain ever climbed is because it's the highest. If there was one higher, I bet there'd be people trying to climb it."
- Jack Barnes

#14 User is offline   kimmie 

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 01:13 PM

View PostDuane Thomas, on Sep 18 2009, 03:50 PM, said:

Quote

We call Lisa 'might mouse' (don't tell!!!).

Pretty sure she's heard that before. Along with "Super Smurf." :lol:


Oops - meant Mighty mouse! :wacko:

You can't find a better person!!!! Or teacher!

And I'm going to order Sauls DVD. Thanks for the great advice.

You guys are the best!

BTW - if you want to see my 'form' bent arms and all :roflol: I'm in Women and Guns magazine this month! I am so incredibly honored!!!!!!

This post has been edited by kimmie: 18 September 2009 - 01:20 PM

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#15 User is offline   lugnut 

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 02:02 PM

Donna- next time you go to a match- ask soemone to see what they can see that might help you. There are a ton of great shooters at our local clubs for sure! I know most of what I'm "supposed" to do but I'm surprised sometimes to find out I don't always do what I think I'm doing!!

Here is probably the biggest things that might help you. When you do the walk thrus, make sure you know exactly where you need to go to get to a shooting position(s). Be very deliberate about this. I'll often times look for something I can see as an anchor point.... you may be surprised how much time you lose by getting to a position and "readjusting". When you move to a box and readjust your body/feet before you shoot for example. Again when you have acquired your target position visually and you know where your feet will end up, focus everything on the gun- getting it ready AS SOON as you are in postion- usually earlier. I mean ready to break the shot ready!

Same for moving out of postion. I see more people hesitate after the last shot on a target. When that shot breaks (amd not earlier!) there is NOTHING else to do but get ready for the next position/shot. I was at a seminar and one of the top shooters told us to always be DRIVING the gun! Get it to where it needs to be next... always!!

If you work on just this stuff.... you won't need to be running like a gazele to see huge improvements.

Oh... and Saul Kirsch's DVDs are DAMN AWESOME! The best I've seen anyway.

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 08:29 PM

I have always practiced with the gun at mouth level pointed down range with my arms relaxed (which ends up making the gun angled like I am trying to shoot like a hoodlum.) The other hand freely moves around at the same level, sort of looking like I am running with my hands up in a don't shoot me movie style. With my off hand up though it allows either A: put my hand out incase I am about to run into something/fall and B: most importantly it only moves a few inches to reengage my firing grip.

#17 User is offline   Singlestack 

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 03:41 AM

"Its not how quick you get there, its how quick you get there ready to shoot."

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Posted 04 October 2009 - 10:19 AM

Donna,

Maybe this will help:

Attached File  27_MoveFast.JPG (1.88MB)
Number of downloads: 110
Pride and fear are emotions, which hope for an outcome. Outcomes take your attention from the present, where the shooting happens, to the future. It is totally impossible to do anything in the future, because it hasn't happened yet. The key to shooting your best is to be present as the witness of the shooting. Do not judge, do not give yourself anything to live up to. We can only shoot as well as we have trained ourselves to shoot. To try to shoot only induces stress. Be content with your current ability. And accumulate practice to improve that ability. Consolidate, build strength where you feel weakness. We cannot raise our ability until we accept our current limitations. Practice dissolves limitations. Matches simply define where the current limits exist. The game of shooting is all about redefining our limits.
- Sam

Amateurs do it til they get it right. Professionals do it til they can't get it wrong.

"It's not the will to win that matters - everyone has that. It's the will to prepare to win that matters."
- Paul "Bear" Bryant

"The only reason why Everest is the highest mountain ever climbed is because it's the highest. If there was one higher, I bet there'd be people trying to climb it."
- Jack Barnes

#19 User is offline   kimmie 

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Posted 04 October 2009 - 09:15 PM

Duane - thanks - that does help alot. Most of the pics and videos I've seen are shot from behind or to the back side of the shooter so it's hard to get a good view of peoples arm positions. I've also been working on keeping the gun up in my 'face box' even when I drop my other arm for longer distances. Still not a 'gazelle' but definately feeling smoother. It's really amzaing the little things that can cut off a second or two!

Thanks :D

Donna

This post has been edited by kimmie: 04 October 2009 - 09:16 PM

Issha Zetsumei: One Shot and Expire

#20 User is offline   Duane Thomas 

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 07:08 AM

Donna,

Yer welcome. :)

I had wanted to post that picture when you first asked your question but didn't know how. Finally I got brainlike and asked Nik Habicht who clued me in. :lol:

Duane
Pride and fear are emotions, which hope for an outcome. Outcomes take your attention from the present, where the shooting happens, to the future. It is totally impossible to do anything in the future, because it hasn't happened yet. The key to shooting your best is to be present as the witness of the shooting. Do not judge, do not give yourself anything to live up to. We can only shoot as well as we have trained ourselves to shoot. To try to shoot only induces stress. Be content with your current ability. And accumulate practice to improve that ability. Consolidate, build strength where you feel weakness. We cannot raise our ability until we accept our current limitations. Practice dissolves limitations. Matches simply define where the current limits exist. The game of shooting is all about redefining our limits.
- Sam

Amateurs do it til they get it right. Professionals do it til they can't get it wrong.

"It's not the will to win that matters - everyone has that. It's the will to prepare to win that matters."
- Paul "Bear" Bryant

"The only reason why Everest is the highest mountain ever climbed is because it's the highest. If there was one higher, I bet there'd be people trying to climb it."
- Jack Barnes

#21 User is offline   MemphisMechanic 

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 06:45 PM

I've always admired the way Dave Sevigny moved for being pretty much pure aggression. Guys like Henning Walgren are smooth, whereas Sevigny is just the opposite. He looks like the hockey player I've heard he used to be.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=jkZVqq0hVE8

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

This is interesting, too. It's the two girls who shoot on team Glock, and Sevigny. All three of them are worth emulating:
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
Printable dryfire targets:
http://www.brianenos...showtopic=73666

#22 User is offline   kimmie 

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 11:09 AM

Those videos are impressive. Thanks. I had the priviledge of watching Dave Sevigny shoot at Area 7 a couple of years ago. I was score keeper. I was out of breath by the time he finished. And it was a short stage!!!!!
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