[Will_M]

Which muscles are used in controlling recoil? I'm a smaller guy and I've watched other guys shoot the same gun with the same load and the muzzle barely rises at all.

What can I do to keep that muzzle down??

[JThompson]

Will_M, on Sep 15 2009, 11:47 AM, said:

What can I do to keep that muzzle down??

Nothing other than working with loads and spring rates. You can not stop recoil, nor should you try. What you want to do is make sure the gun comes back on target after every shot. A vise like grip on the gun is not the way to do that, no is locking all the muscles in the arm and lats to try and fight it. Flow with it don't fight it.

JT

This post has been edited by JThompson: 15 September 2009 - 10:53 AM

[P.Pres]

You never want to muscle the gun. The recoil control comes subconsiously. Putting
effort into recoil control only causes bad hits. You need to work on an agreesive stance
that works with your build . Also what your guns looks like to spectators and what you see
behind the gun are two totally different things. Just shoot more !!

[Will_M]

P.Pres, on Sep 15 2009, 12:55 PM, said:

You never want to muscle the gun. The recoil control comes subconsiously. Putting
effort into recoil control only causes bad hits. You need to work on an agreesive stance
that works with your build . Also what your guns looks like to spectators and what you see
behind the gun are two totally different things. Just shoot more !!

What are different aspects of stance that I can try to see what works for me? (sorry if that makes zero sense)

My biggest problem lately is my splits. I just switched permanently to major loads from minor loads about 400 rounds ago, and my split times went down considerably. I was right around .20 seconds with my minor loads, and now I'm at .30+. These times are for A zone hits at 7 yards, not just blazing away.

Also, am I understanding right that just shooting lots and lots of major PF in practice will help the most with getting back on target quickly?

[JThompson]

Will, do some searches the info you want has been covered many times over here....

Best,

JT

[JeffWard]

High grip, weight forward on the balls of your feet. Absorb the recoil with your whole body, and watch the front sight.

If I try to muscle the gun, I miss. (And I'm 6'4", 240lbs, fitness pro)
If I concentrate on the front sight, and press as it returns to target, my splits DROP, and my accuracy improves.

Firm, consistent grip, not a crush grip.

Finally... experiment and balance your recoil spring to your load. If the gun is OVER-sprung, the barrel will dip as the slide returns to battery. The impact of the forward crashing slide will push it down, slowing your splits, or your follow-up shots will hit low. If it's under-sprung, it will not lock up in battery reliably.

Have fun!

Jeff

[SA Friday]

Will,
Take a class with one of the GM's out there. Based on what you are asking, it will pay for itself in ammo savings alone to learn what you need to know up front.

[XRe]

Technique is huge - no amount of muscle makes up for bad technique. It starts with the grip, and moves through the stance. Looks are definitely deceiving when you watch someone else shoot and try to compare that back to your experience behind the gun - video tape yourself, and see what you look like first hand for that, if you think it matters.

That said, I'm going to disagree with the guys above. Like it or not, you do use the muscles in your hands and forearms (primarily), and upper arms and shoulders (to a much lower degree) to manage recoil and return the gun to point of aim after each shot. Most shooters are going to find that, once they've got solid fundamentals in grip/stance, they're going to gravitate to a relatively firm grip in the weak hand as the best way to keep the gun controlled. Being able to execute that grip without straining means you're going to want to be in about the 80% of max strength range - the stronger that 80% marks is, generally speaking, the more force you can exert on the gun without introducing tension into your shooting platform. This translates to a flatter shooting gun as judged from the shooter's perspective - usually a gun that cycles very consistently, too.

Flat is not the most important thing - consistency is. If you're putting more force on the gun and its cycling less erratically, you've probably exceeded the limit based on your current strength (erratically, meaning it does different things on each shot - as opposed to not going straight up and down, but consistently some other way...). Flat does help, though, in terms of being able to follow up quickly.

So, how to increase grip strength, essentially? Those grip tools work - like the Captains of Crush stuff. There are other ways, too - Farmer Carry using dumbells or kettlebells, any kind of barbell lifting, pullups, etc. Anything that requires you to hang onto an object under load. Strengthening the upper arms and shoulders (and core... and legs... and...) feeds into giving you a stronger, more stable platform, and prevents the whole body from being moved under recoil (again, we're assuming you have good technique already). Get fit and strong and everything tends to get easier

[P.Pres]

General fitness, Yes, strong arms, Yes, but specific exercises to improve
your recoil control through strenth. No. Unless, as stated, you have the technique
part down pat, then your just "strenthening" your technique..

Forward stance, balance on the balls of your feet, shoulders slightly ahead of hips.
Another thing is that you cant just shoot minor all this time and just pick up a major
gun and think its going to be the same thing. You need to shoot 1k or so to feel the
load and make adjustments as needed.

Search Matt Burkett timing drill .. and/or pick a copy of Matt's pistol videos, lots of good
basic stuff in there.

This post has been edited by P.Pres: 15 September 2009 - 09:28 PM

[Pittbug]

I took a class with Bob Vogel who talked about recoil control. The three things I took away from it were:

1) Use as high a grip on the gun as you can.
2) Make sure you're really utilizing your support hand.
3) Strengthen forearms - he uses these: http://www.ironmind....insofcrush.html

[Classic_jon]

Take a look and some of the books and articles by Massad Ayoob, Brian Enos, and Todd Jarrett on this subject and you should be able to find a wealth of info. Brian has several books and videos in his store and there is a great vid on youtube by Todd Jarrett about the basics of stance and grip that should get you pointed in the correct direction.

The advice some others have given about getting someone *good* to watch you shoot and critique you as you shoot is a great one. I learned more by doing that in about 200 rounds than I could have by myself in 5,000! I now know what the "right stance" feels like.. now I just have to get to where I can repeat it!


BTW I am 6' 3" 250ish (need to loose about 30 lbs... ) and I have very very strong hands. Last time they tested them I was at ~80lbs of force in my right hand and about 72 in my left and it actually hurts me in that I squeeze the trigger real hard when I get in a hurry and dip the gun....

On the flip side, I have an ex-gf that could shoot my .40 with full power loads at 1200fps that was 5'5" and **might** have been 130lbs when carrying her purse! She ROCKED AND ROLLED shooting my pistol at 20' to 30'!!

In short, Technique is a *huge* part of it but having a gun that fits your hands and having a decent amount of hand and forearm strength does not hurt either.

This post has been edited by Classic_jon: 15 September 2009 - 09:21 PM

[Gary1911A1]

I agree with what most here have to say. Like Classic_jon said technique is important, but you need grip strength too. Good grip strength is important for both hands and more important in your weak hand. If your weak hand needs to regrip during strings of shots, your technique, strength, grip surface, size and shape of grip needs addressed.

[Bill Schwab]

Through the winter when I'm not shooting much (if at all) I now do forearm exercises that isolate the same forearm muscles we use to (subconsciously) return the gun to the target after we shoot. Years ago, when I did not do these exercises, I would have great difficulty getting into my shooting rhythm in the spring, and oftentimes would have muscle fatigue in my forearms after shooting. Once I'm in the groove of shooting 2-4 times a week the muscle fatigue goes away. Yes, I agree, your grip, stance, and weight balance on your feet are all important, however some of us do not have as much muscle as others and we need a little extra training.

P.S. In my experience the grip muscles in your forearm that are used to counter recoil are not improved by using a hand squeezer.

[flack jacket]

Will_M

Do you have Brian Enos's Book? It has tips on grip and stance. Hopefully Mr. Enos can chime in...

I believe you are trying to control Muzzle flip vs. Recoil.

My understanding recoil is Always going to be a byproduct of firing the pistol. Current compensator designs can Help reduce felt recoil through popple holes and/or side ports. Top ports will help control muzzle flip.

Since you are possibly firing a non-compensated pistol then I agree with the guys above....

+1 on Grip strength too. It's combination of physical capability and technique.

This post has been edited by flack jacket: 21 October 2009 - 11:11 AM

[Pharaoh Bender]

I'm with Dave that having upper body strength does not take away from performance. As stated earlier, technique is king...but consider the following:

Take two shooters of equal skill and hand them identical guns with identical loads.

One shooter has 30% more upper body strength than the other.

Which shooter do you believe would win over the other in a match?

[Chris Keen]

Pharaoh Bender, on Oct 21 2009, 05:34 PM, said:

Take two shooters of equal skill and hand them identical guns with identical loads.

One shooter has 30% more upper body strength than the other.

Which shooter do you believe would win over the other in a match?

The one shooting an OPEN gun?!?!?


No seriously, I have been using grip squeezers for a big part of this season, as well as kettle bells, and a 10 lb. weight that hangs from a string, which I roll up on a 2 inch piece of PVC pipe. This strengthens my wrists as well as my forearms. Most people tell me my Limited gun shoots very flat, and while that has a lot to do with the recoil spring & load that I use, I have to believe that some part of that equation comes from grip strength.

It can't hurt none, right?

[Lawdawg112]

+1 on the captains of crush grippers. I think it has helped out my overall grip and has helped my weak hand only shooting quite a bit. These are no comparison to the gripper you buy in the sporting goods department in wal mart. The IMTUGS are also really nice because they isolate your two fingers and get the thumb involved as well to improve your pinching grip

[G-ManBart]

XRe, on Sep 15 2009, 02:27 PM, said:

That said, I'm going to disagree with the guys above. Like it or not, you do use the muscles in your hands and forearms (primarily), and upper arms and shoulders (to a much lower degree) to manage recoil and return the gun to point of aim after each shot. Most shooters are going to find that, once they've got solid fundamentals in grip/stance, they're going to gravitate to a relatively firm grip in the weak hand as the best way to keep the gun controlled. Being able to execute that grip without straining means you're going to want to be in about the 80% of max strength range - the stronger that 80% marks is, generally speaking, the more force you can exert on the gun without introducing tension into your shooting platform. This translates to a flatter shooting gun as judged from the shooter's perspective - usually a gun that cycles very consistently, too.

Absolutely, +1

If we simply look at pictures of the very best shooters in the world it's pretty clear that the muscles in their arms are being used pretty significantly while shooting. The difference, as you point out, is that they're putting a lot of oomph into the grip, but are still a good margin below max, so it doesn't get to the point where it causes unwanted movement to the gun during the trigger press.

Hand a good shooter a magazine with a dummy in it and have them run some bill drills at their normal max 100% speed and when they hit that dummy, their whole body is going to lurch forward, it'll just be after the hammer has fallen.

People forget how amazingly adaptive the human body is. When it gets pushed a specific way, with a specific amount of force, it will find a way to push back and balance that out without any effort or thought. That's why changing guns or loads will always throw someone for a while until they adjust/adapt to it (the better the shooter, the faster that seems to happen). I think I can make a pretty quick transition (within a magazine or two) that puts me pretty close, but to really get it right it's probably more like 1-200 rounds. R,

[Sandro]

Will M,

You may want to ask Ron Every about this. This seems to be one of the areas he is very knowledgeable. He had an article on Front Sight not long ago about this as well.

Regards,

Sandro