[KING 45ACP]

A friend got disqualified on the last stage of the day. Will he still have scores for the first 4 stages but not the 5th or has he lost all scores for the whole day because of the DQ?

[ChuckS]

KING 45ACP, on Sep 6 2009, 08:38 AM, said:

A friend got disqualified on the last stage of the day. Will he still have scores for the first 4 stages but not the 5th or has he lost all scores for the whole day because of the DQ?

Sorry, but you loose it all.

[KING 45ACP]

That sucks. This keeps happening to him,he keeps having AD when he draws. He is shooting a 1911 with a 3lbs trigger,I'm going to tell him to give the 1911 a break and start shooting his G17 because of the longer trigger pull distance to fire. I'm hoping this will help him because this is the 3rd time it has happened and I think he is getting discouraged. Any thoughts to help him?

This post has been edited by KING 45ACP: 06 September 2009 - 08:52 AM

[bberkley]

Tell him to slow down, or practice dry-fire draws every day 100 times with an empty gun and the hammer cocked until he manages to keep his finger off the trigger when disengaging the safety.

His draw mechanics are not correct, maybe getting the Burkett videos and working on the draw will help him stop doing that.

The problem isn't the light trigger, if he switches to a Glock, he will eventually do the same thing with that pistol until he corrects his draw.

[jasmap]

KING 45ACP, on Sep 6 2009, 08:47 AM, said:

That sucks. This keeps happening to him,he keeps having AD when he draws. He is shooting a 1911 with a 3lbs trigger,I'm going to tell him to give the 1911 a break and start shooting his G17 because of the longer trigger pull distance to fire. I'm hoping this will help him because this is the 3rd time it has happened and I think he is getting discouraged. Any thoughts to help him?

The gun isn't the problem. Switching guns doesn't solve this problem. He needs to have a competent safe shooter go over everything with him. He also needs to practice including dryfire practice to become a safe competent shooter.

[KING 45ACP]

Great replies. I have told him to practice dry fire and drawing the pistol,I don't think he is doing it enough or at all. I am going to start working with him on safety,I think he is just trying to rush when the buzzer goes off trying to be faster.

[wide45]

If this is the third time He has been DQ'ed, He should know the consequences. It's a learning experience.

Total agreement that it's his draw, not the light trigger. He needs to fix the problem by learning to draw correctly.






I'll suggest that that he not go to a match until he has worked out a safe draw. If he continues to DQ, sooner or later He's going to get turned away, and not allowed to compete. Nobody wants that to happen.

The match officials can't tolerate someone who demonstrates that they won't learn to compete safely. Don't let your friend be that guy.

[sfchorn]

[/quote]The gun isn't the problem. Switching guns doesn't solve this problem. He needs to have a competent safe shooter go over everything with him. He also needs to practice including dryfire practice to become a safe competent shooter.
[/quote]

Agreed. PLEASE find someone who can help him work on his draw. He is making two separate errors:
1. Taking the safety off too early
2. Getting his finger on the trigger too early

This combination WILL eventually result in an entrance and exit wound if not corrected. I have personally helped provide first aid for exactly this type of incident. Luckily, the shooter will regain full use of his knee. It was the first gunshot wound I've ever seen, and hopefully, my last.

This was a huge wakeup call for us. My shooting buddies and I spent our next practice watching each other draw. We watched when the safety came off and when the finger went into the trigger guard. For us, the safety went off about the same time that the support hand met the strong hand and the finger went on the trigger as we brought the gun up to eye level and started extending towards the target.

We also promised each other that we would NEVER allow a safety issue to "slide" as we RO during our local matches.

[zhunter]

All good replies above

But this is very simple, keep your finger off the trigger until the gun is up in front of you.

Like others have said, DRY FIRE is the answer.

It's not sexy, but it works

[G-ManBart]

zhunter, on Sep 6 2009, 12:35 PM, said:

All good replies above

But this is very simple, keep your finger off the trigger until the gun is up in front of you.

Like others have said, CORRECT DRY FIRE is the answer.

It's not sexy, but it works

Slight edit....people who don't know better can/might get sloppy in dry fire because "it's not loaded"

[ChuckS]

KING 45ACP, on Sep 6 2009, 09:13 AM, said:

Great replies. I have told him to practice dry fire and drawing the pistol,I don't think he is doing it enough or at all. I am going to start working with him on safety,I think he is just trying to rush when the buzzer goes off trying to be faster.

Make sure he practices with and without the timer. Fine tune the draw without and then add the timer pressure with some par time drills. Once he is used to the timer, things should get more consistent (and safer ) He will see that the timer stops being a threat and becomes permission to get started doing something he is completely ready to do!

Later,
Chuck

This post has been edited by ChuckS: 06 September 2009 - 09:43 AM

[zhunter]

G-ManBart, on Sep 6 2009, 12:40 PM, said:

zhunter, on Sep 6 2009, 12:35 PM, said:

All good replies above

But this is very simple, keep your finger off the trigger until the gun is up in front of you.

Like others have said, CORRECT DRY FIRE is the answer.

It's not sexy, but it works

Slight edit....people who don't know better can/might get sloppy in dry fire because "it's not loaded"

GOOD point, thanks for the edit

[BSeevers]

KING 45ACP, on Sep 6 2009, 11:47 AM, said:

That sucks. This keeps happening to him,he keeps having AD when he draws. He is shooting a 1911 with a 3lbs trigger,I'm going to tell him to give the 1911 a break and start shooting his G17 because of the longer trigger pull distance to fire. I'm hoping this will help him because this is the 3rd time it has happened and I think he is getting discouraged. Any thoughts to help him?

The third time? I didn't know that or I woulda got more involved.

That bullet went in the air and landed over a mile away. Frankly it could have landed in the skull of a child. That is how the situation needs to be treated and understood. In fact I haven't seen one of those in a long time. Its scary and dangerous. It needs to stop NOW. I would recommend not going to a match until its fixed. We play with deadly devices and they must be treated as such. If you think I am too firm, arrogant, well anybody who does needs to get over that cause that's a worse issue.

Anybody can AD over the berm but this is a safety issue NOT a gun issue. Changing guns is not the solution.

Do not put your finger on the trigger until your sights are on target.

[BSeevers]

BSeevers, on Sep 6 2009, 12:46 PM, said:

KING 45ACP, on Sep 6 2009, 11:47 AM, said:

That sucks. This keeps happening to him,he keeps having AD when he draws. He is shooting a 1911 with a 3lbs trigger,I'm going to tell him to give the 1911 a break and start shooting his G17 because of the longer trigger pull distance to fire. I'm hoping this will help him because this is the 3rd time it has happened and I think he is getting discouraged. Any thoughts to help him?

The third time? I didn't know that or I woulda got more involved.

That bullet went in the air and landed over a mile away. Frankly it could have landed in the skull of a child. That is how the situation needs to be treated and understood. In fact I haven't seen one of those in a long time. Its scary and dangerous. It needs to stop NOW. I would recommend not going to a match until its fixed. We play with deadly devices and they must be treated as such. If you think I am too firm, arrogant, well anybody who does needs to get over that cause that's a worse issue.

Anybody can AD over the berm but this is a safety issue NOT a gun issue. Changing guns is not the solution.

Do not put your finger on the trigger until your sights are on target.

I have to add DRY FIRE is not the solution. Its improper technique. All dry fire will so is ingraine the improper technique. The guy above said it all. Safety is off too soon and finger on the trigger too soon. Fix it.

Oh and I would help coach and teach for nothing if you would want.

This post has been edited by BSeevers: 06 September 2009 - 09:58 AM

[DarthMuffin]

ChuckS, on Sep 6 2009, 08:39 AM, said:

Sorry, but you loose it all.

I never understood that rule. In RO class a DQ was explained as a safety/liability thing: You've proven yourself to be unsafe, and if I let you continue and the problem happens again then the club could be liable since we knew of the danger.

That makes sense, but what's the harm in scoring them? Not letting someone score the match "as shot" (0's on the remaining stages of course) seems punitive. A DQ isn't meant to be punishment, it's safety.

Can anyone explain why this is?

[Sarge]

BSeevers, on Sep 6 2009, 12:46 PM, said:

KING 45ACP, on Sep 6 2009, 11:47 AM, said:

That sucks. This keeps happening to him,he keeps having AD when he draws. He is shooting a 1911 with a 3lbs trigger,I'm going to tell him to give the 1911 a break and start shooting his G17 because of the longer trigger pull distance to fire. I'm hoping this will help him because this is the 3rd time it has happened and I think he is getting discouraged. Any thoughts to help him?

The third time? I didn't know that or I woulda got more involved.

That bullet went in the air and landed over a mile away. Frankly it could have landed in the skull of a child. That is how the situation needs to be treated and understood. In fact I haven't seen one of those in a long time. Its scary and dangerous. It needs to stop NOW. I would recommend not going to a match until its fixed. We play with deadly devices and they must be treated as such. If you think I am too firm, arrogant, well anybody who does needs to get over that cause that's a worse issue.

Anybody can AD over the berm but this is a safety issue NOT a gun issue. Changing guns is not the solution.

Do not put your finger on the trigger until your sights are on target.

Yeah, I was there too. It was not pretty. Judging from other casual observations the shooter might be ahead since we are this late in the season around here to take a break the rest of the season and work on mechanics/familiarity over the off season so he can come back strong and safer next spring. Just a thought.
The AD occured on a challenging stage prop for sure but it was challenging for me too and I told myself to just slow way down if I had any doubt about my ability to control the gun. It's not like either one of us were going to shatter any USPSA records anyway.

[BSeevers]

DarthMuffin, on Sep 6 2009, 01:01 PM, said:

ChuckS, on Sep 6 2009, 08:39 AM, said:

Sorry, but you loose it all.

I never understood that rule. In RO class a DQ was explained as a safety/liability thing: You've proven yourself to be unsafe, and if I let you continue and the problem happens again then the club could be liable since we knew of the danger.

That makes sense, but what's the harm in scoring them? Not letting someone score the match "as shot" (0's on the remaining stages of course) seems punitive. A DQ isn't meant to be punishment, it's safety.

Can anyone explain why this is?

Are you serious about this? Not inciting an argument but I am pretty firm about safety and think and hope we all are.

Improper gun handling should never be rewarded. Bullets going where they shouldn't are truly a step away from the guy above performing first aid on your entry/exit wound or God forbid, worse.

You are sent home and should be thinking about your actions, not match results.

[racerba]

KING 45ACP, on Sep 6 2009, 12:13 PM, said:

...I am going to start working with him on safety,I think he is just trying to rush when the buzzer goes off trying to be faster.

Tell him that being faster on going home early is not the goal here. Going slow, being safe and everybody going home safely is the goal.

[Sarge]

I agree with BS. What if you were DQ'd for some reason after you shoot your last stage? (It could easily happen) Should you then be eligable to win the match? No way. A DQ should erase everything. I agree that it should not be considered punitive but many of the toughest lessons are just that. Besides being DQ'd should be something that you never want to happen again. I fully understand that safety is the number one consideration, always, but scoring is important as well. If you keep your scores then some of the lesson is lost.
I hope I can live up to my own advice if it ever happens to me. Realize what I did wrong. Don't get pissed at the RO for doing what every other shooter on the squad expects him to do, his job. Put my stuff away and come back and help with the rest of the match. Including pasting, setting steel and teardown.

[KING 45ACP]

BSeevers, on Sep 6 2009, 11:46 AM, said:

KING 45ACP, on Sep 6 2009, 11:47 AM, said:

That sucks. This keeps happening to him,he keeps having AD when he draws. He is shooting a 1911 with a 3lbs trigger,I'm going to tell him to give the 1911 a break and start shooting his G17 because of the longer trigger pull distance to fire. I'm hoping this will help him because this is the 3rd time it has happened and I think he is getting discouraged. Any thoughts to help him?

The third time? I didn't know that or I woulda got more involved.

That bullet went in the air and landed over a mile away. Frankly it could have landed in the skull of a child. That is how the situation needs to be treated and understood. In fact I haven't seen one of those in a long time. Its scary and dangerous. It needs to stop NOW. I would recommend not going to a match until its fixed. We play with deadly devices and they must be treated as such. If you think I am too firm, arrogant, well anybody who does needs to get over that cause that's a worse issue.

Anybody can AD over the berm but this is a safety issue NOT a gun issue. Changing guns is not the solution.

Do not put your finger on the trigger until your sights are on target.

Thanks Bill and everyone for your replies. I agree with what you are saying that he had the safety off to soon and his finger on the trigger way to soon. I was camcording it and have it on tape, watching the tape in slow motion I'm pretty sure the round went into the berm,not that it makes it ok,but at least the round was stopped and did not hit a innocent person. This is the first time he got DQed for it. The first time was at a IDPA match and also on the draw and ADed into the berm but the RO did not stop him and they let it go. They 2nd AD in a match was after engaging a string of targets and performong a mandatory reload he slapped the mag in and before he could get his support hand on the gun he fired into the berm again,he did not get DQed for that either. I am going to try to work with him myself and if that doesn't help then we might need help. Thank you all for your help.

[zhunter]

Sandman

Nice AD

[KING 45ACP]

sandman, on Sep 6 2009, 12:44 PM, said:

I agree with BS. What if you were DQ'd for some reason after you shoot your last stage? (It could easily happen) Should you then be eligable to win the match? No way. A DQ should erase everything. I agree that it should not be considered punitive but many of the toughest lessons are just that. Besides being DQ'd should be something that you never want to happen again. I fully understand that safety is the number one consideration, always, but scoring is important as well. If you keep your scores then some of the lesson is lost.
I hope I can live up to my own advice if it ever happens to me. Realize what I did wrong. Don't get pissed at the RO for doing what every other shooter on the squad expects him to do, his job. Put my stuff away and come back and help with the rest of the match. Including pasting, setting steel and teardown.

I want to apologize for not being able to stay and help teardown,but I'm sure my ride who got DQed was about to leave me and he drove that day. I didn't want to be stuck 1 hour away from home. I know he was not mad at the RO for being DQed,he was more embarrassed and mad at himself.

[IL-SIG]

I too was in the squad with the shooter that was DQ'd. I will actually go even further than BS. In my opinion the fact that this person has AD'd three times, albeit only one resulting in a DQ, clearly shows that he is not learning from his mistakes and should not be competing with others until he fixes his problem. The most important aspect of our sport is SAFETY! We are participating in the most extreme of extreme sports. His mistake could take a life - and his lack of basic safety (finger in the trigger guard before engaging a known target) is inexcuseable!

I suggest that he take some time away from shooting, take a basic safety class, slow waayyyy down and only think about safely completing a course of fire before concerning himself with speed and/or his scores.

The RO did absolutely the right thing in stopping the shooter immediately and counseling him about what happened and why he received a DQ. The RO did a great job of treating the shooter with dignity and respect during the entire incident.

I will make one more comment; besides the DQ, I was disappointed by the shooter not showing more sportsmanship by staying with the squad to help paste/reset for other competitors and also tear down the stage at the end of the match. He could have shown much better sportsmanship by taking his DQ and continuing to help his squad-mates. I have seen other DQ's in matches and the shooters I have seen always put their equipment away then returned to the squad to help with the rest of the match. I have much more respect for someone who takes their DQ, understands their mistake and learns from it, then shows true sportsmanship and finishes the match with his squad - including cleanup!

[Chris Keen]

There's always other ways to get home, Roy. There were 2 others who live in your same town, who would have given you a ride home! Besides I doubt a really good friend would have actually left you. That would be pretty shallow.


But more importantly, work on his gun handling skills with him, and if needed there are lots of resources for you and him. We all want you guys to be safe, and have fun at the same time.

[CocoBolo]

The good thing is nobody got hurt. I watched a guy shoot himself thru the knee with a 185gr precison moly bullet from a 40 S&W STI Eagle. He got real lucky didn't hit an artery. This was on a draw. It doesn't matter if you have a 1/4# trigger or a 10# trigger the safety is on until the gun is pointed down range once its pointed down range and at this point it should be on a target an AD isn't dangerous. Also the finger doesn't go into the trigger guard until you are engaging targets, and I'm not talking about your foot. The subject individual was DQ'ed from the match and taken by Air Life to a hospital. It was pretty embarassing he the president of a USPSA club!

In this case its not only about not getting DQ'ed it is about helping this person to keep his life and limb.