[ebg3]

A question has been asked about the scoring of a moving target that offers itself more than one time but is completely hidden at rest. (Will the target be scored as a disappearing target or not?) I see rule 9.9.1 says about a moving target "... which continuously appear and disappear, will always incur failure to shoot at and/or miss penalties". My question is how is continuously appearing and disappearing defined? The rule seems to be a little vague on this. Any help to clear this up is appreciated.
EG

[Dan Sierpina]

ebg3, on Sep 1 2009, 08:03 AM, said:

A question has been asked about the scoring of a moving target that offers itself more than one time but is completely hidden at rest. (Will the target be scored as a disappearing target or not?) I see rule 9.9.1 says about a moving target "... which continuously appear and disappear, will always incur failure to shoot at and/or miss penalties". My question is how is continuously appearing and disappearing defined? The rule seems to be a little vague on this. Any help to clear this up is appreciated.
EG

A continuously appearing/dissappearing target would be a swinger. If it's not visible at rest, it's a dissappearing target, hence a bonus.

[Cigar Guy]

ebg3, on Sep 1 2009, 07:03 AM, said:

A question has been asked about the scoring of a moving target that offers itself more than one time but is completely hidden at rest. (Will the target be scored as a disappearing target or not?) I see rule 9.9.1 says about a moving target "... which continuously appear and disappear, will always incur failure to shoot at and/or miss penalties". My question is how is continuously appearing and disappearing defined? The rule seems to be a little vague on this. Any help to clear this up is appreciated.
EG

The double drop turners were designed based on an old rule which made single appearance targets disappearing, but two or more exposures not disappearing. The obvious question was what happens if you have a malfunction after activating the target but before you can shoot? That rule was removed a few years ago.

The rule, 9.9.1, is now, "Moving scoring targets which present at least a portion of the highest
scoring area when at rest following the completion of their designed
movement, or which continuously appear and disappear, will always
incur failure to shoot at and/or miss penalties (exception see Rule 9.2.4.4)."

Continuous movement is defined based on when the target starts moving until it naturally comes to rest. It is not dependent on how long one or all shooters take to complete the course of fire.

[mactiger]

ebg3, on Sep 1 2009, 07:03 AM, said:

A question has been asked about the scoring of a moving target that offers itself more than one time but is completely hidden at rest. (Will the target be scored as a disappearing target or not?) I see rule 9.9.1 says about a moving target "... which continuously appear and disappear, will always incur failure to shoot at and/or miss penalties". My question is how is continuously appearing and disappearing defined? The rule seems to be a little vague on this. Any help to clear this up is appreciated.
EG

con⋅tin⋅u⋅ous
  /kənˈtɪnyuəs/

–adjective
1. uninterrupted in time; without cessation: continuous coughing during the concert.

A continuously moving target is one that is still moving at the same rate and range of motion when you turn it off as when it was activated. In other words, it has a motor on it, and won't slow down or stop until turned off.

All other gravity activated targets are not continuous, and are therefore subject to rule 9.9.1 and 9.9.2 and 9.9.3 and Appendix B3. If, when it comes to rest (and it will at some point if it's gravity operated) there isn't 25% of the lower A zone or all of the upper A zone visible and available to shoot at, it's a disappearing target. It doesn't matter if it's still swinging or not--what matters for the definition of disappearing or not is the target's state at rest.

The particular target setup you mention would be a disappearing target.

Hope this clears it up.

Troy

This post has been edited by mactiger: 01 September 2009 - 07:49 AM

[ebg3]

That clears it up, thanks Troy!
EG

[JThompson]

Troy you stated the normal 25% lower all upper rule, but that's not how I read it from that rule. It just says a portion of the highest scoring area.

9.9.1 Moving scoring targets which present at least a portion of the highest
scoring area when at rest following the completion of their designed
movement, or which continuously appear and disappear, will always
incur failure to shoot at and/or miss penalties (exception see Rule
9.2.4.4).

[mactiger]

JThompson, on Sep 1 2009, 12:48 PM, said:

Troy you stated the normal 25% lower all upper rule, but that's not how I read it from that rule. It just says a portion of the highest scoring area.

9.9.1 Moving scoring targets which present at least a portion of the highest
scoring area when at rest following the completion of their designed
movement, or which continuously appear and disappear, will always
incur failure to shoot at and/or miss penalties (exception see Rule
9.2.4.4).

Appendix B3 tells you what that portion must be Since the target must come to rest behind something, either hard cover or a no-shoot, the portion presented has to conform to B3.

Troy

[JThompson]

mactiger, on Sep 1 2009, 12:56 PM, said:

JThompson, on Sep 1 2009, 12:48 PM, said:

Troy you stated the normal 25% lower all upper rule, but that's not how I read it from that rule. It just says a portion of the highest scoring area.

9.9.1 Moving scoring targets which present at least a portion of the highest
scoring area when at rest following the completion of their designed
movement, or which continuously appear and disappear, will always
incur failure to shoot at and/or miss penalties (exception see Rule
9.2.4.4).

Appendix B3 tells you what that portion must be Since the target must come to rest behind something, either hard cover or a no-shoot, the portion presented has to conform to B3.

Troy

Gotcha, they should probably reference B3 at the bottom of the para.

Best,

JT

This post has been edited by JThompson: 02 September 2009 - 07:20 AM

[COMATZD]

So just to clarify for me because I may have misunderstood previously: a swinger that would naturally come to rest in a hidden position (even if it is still swinging when my COF is complete) is a disappearing target and incur no penalty if missed or not shot at?

[JThompson]

COMATZD, on Sep 2 2009, 09:36 AM, said:

So just to clarify for me because I may have misunderstood previously: a swinger that would naturally come to rest in a hidden position (even if it is still swinging when my COF is complete) is a disappearing target and incur no penalty if missed or not shot at?

That is correct.

You still need to "activate" it but that's it. Failure to use whatever prop activates it would be an FTE.

This post has been edited by JThompson: 02 September 2009 - 08:42 AM

[Nik Habicht]

JThompson, on Sep 2 2009, 11:40 AM, said:

COMATZD, on Sep 2 2009, 09:36 AM, said:

So just to clarify for me because I may have misunderstood previously: a swinger that would naturally come to rest in a hidden position (even if it is still swinging when my COF is complete) is a disappearing target and incur no penalty if missed or not shot at?

That is correct.

You still need to "activate" it but that's it. Failure to use whatever prop activates it would be an FTE.

...and miss penalties, even if disappearing, right? See 9.9.3.....

[JThompson]

Nik Habicht, on Sep 2 2009, 10:44 AM, said:

JThompson, on Sep 2 2009, 11:40 AM, said:

COMATZD, on Sep 2 2009, 09:36 AM, said:

So just to clarify for me because I may have misunderstood previously: a swinger that would naturally come to rest in a hidden position (even if it is still swinging when my COF is complete) is a disappearing target and incur no penalty if missed or not shot at?

That is correct.

You still need to "activate" it but that's it. Failure to use whatever prop activates it would be an FTE.

...and miss penalties, even if disappearing, right? See 9.9.3.....

Well you don't get the points for something you did not hit, but you don't get penalty points. It's called a NPM or no penalty Mike/Miss.

This post has been edited by JThompson: 02 September 2009 - 09:49 AM

[Nik Habicht]

JThompson, on Sep 2 2009, 12:47 PM, said:

Nik Habicht, on Sep 2 2009, 10:44 AM, said:

JThompson, on Sep 2 2009, 11:40 AM, said:

COMATZD, on Sep 2 2009, 09:36 AM, said:

So just to clarify for me because I may have misunderstood previously: a swinger that would naturally come to rest in a hidden position (even if it is still swinging when my COF is complete) is a disappearing target and incur no penalty if missed or not shot at?

That is correct.

You still need to "activate" it but that's it. Failure to use whatever prop activates it would be an FTE.

...and miss penalties, even if disappearing, right? See 9.9.3.....

Well you don't get the points for something you did not hit, but you don't get penalty points. It's called a NPM or no penalty Mike/Miss.

That's not how I understood it when taking RO classes. Relevant rules:

Quote

9.9.2 Moving scoring targets, which do not comply with the above criteria are considered disappearing targets and will not incur failure to shoot at or miss penalties except where Rule 9.9.3 applies.

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement.

So -- activate the disappearing target and it's your choice to shoot at it or not. No penalties for FTE or misses apply. (We use NPM on the scoresheet.)

Don't activate the target -- penalties apply for FTE and Misses (real -10 penalties for each missing hit...)

There once was a rifle stage with a real zig-zag pattern between parallel strands of caution tape. you had to engage targets on both sides of the chute. The chute culminated in a wall that hid a dual target bobbler that was activated by knocking down the port cover in the wall. It was a long run --- maybe 50 yards total, but a relatively short stage otherwise ~ 30 rounds. I shot a couple of targets that were only visible from the start position, ran about five yards to the first corner, from which I could see everything else, including slivers of the D-zone of both bobbler targets, hosed everything else from there; then ran up to the wall off the clock and activated the movers....

Upshot -- no penalties and a smoking time. Downside -- being referred to as a gamer the rest of the day.....

[Jadeslade]

Gamer.

[JThompson]

Nik Habicht, on Sep 2 2009, 11:37 AM, said:

JThompson, on Sep 2 2009, 12:47 PM, said:

Nik Habicht, on Sep 2 2009, 10:44 AM, said:

JThompson, on Sep 2 2009, 11:40 AM, said:

COMATZD, on Sep 2 2009, 09:36 AM, said:

So just to clarify for me because I may have misunderstood previously: a swinger that would naturally come to rest in a hidden position (even if it is still swinging when my COF is complete) is a disappearing target and incur no penalty if missed or not shot at?

That is correct.

You still need to "activate" it but that's it. Failure to use whatever prop activates it would be an FTE.

...and miss penalties, even if disappearing, right? See 9.9.3.....

Well you don't get the points for something you did not hit, but you don't get penalty points. It's called a NPM or no penalty Mike/Miss.

That's not how I understood it when taking RO classes. Relevant rules:

Quote

9.9.2 Moving scoring targets, which do not comply with the above criteria are considered disappearing targets and will not incur failure to shoot at or miss penalties except where Rule 9.9.3 applies.

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement.

So -- activate the disappearing target and it's your choice to shoot at it or not. No penalties for FTE or misses apply. (We use NPM on the scoresheet.)

Don't activate the target -- penalties apply for FTE and Misses (real -10 penalties for each missing hit...)

There once was a rifle stage with a real zig-zag pattern between parallel strands of caution tape. you had to engage targets on both sides of the chute. The chute culminated in a wall that hid a dual target bobbler that was activated by knocking down the port cover in the wall. It was a long run --- maybe 50 yards total, but a relatively short stage otherwise ~ 30 rounds. I shot a couple of targets that were only visible from the start position, ran about five yards to the first corner, from which I could see everything else, including slivers of the D-zone of both bobbler targets, hosed everything else from there; then ran up to the wall off the clock and activated the movers....

Upshot -- no penalties and a smoking time. Downside -- being referred to as a gamer the rest of the day.....

Nik,
I'm not sure what your argument is here, from what I am reading we are saying the same thing.

EDIT: I see, what you are saying. I was talking about once activated and you were talking about penalties for non activation and yes, you get the FTE and the misses IF you do not activate.

This post has been edited by JThompson: 02 September 2009 - 11:38 AM

[NMBOpen]

Nik Habicht, on Sep 2 2009, 11:37 AM, said:

JThompson, on Sep 2 2009, 12:47 PM, said:

Nik Habicht, on Sep 2 2009, 10:44 AM, said:

JThompson, on Sep 2 2009, 11:40 AM, said:

COMATZD, on Sep 2 2009, 09:36 AM, said:

So just to clarify for me because I may have misunderstood previously: a swinger that would naturally come to rest in a hidden position (even if it is still swinging when my COF is complete) is a disappearing target and incur no penalty if missed or not shot at?

That is correct.

You still need to "activate" it but that's it. Failure to use whatever prop activates it would be an FTE.

...and miss penalties, even if disappearing, right? See 9.9.3.....

Well you don't get the points for something you did not hit, but you don't get penalty points. It's called a NPM or no penalty Mike/Miss.

That's not how I understood it when taking RO classes. Relevant rules:

Quote

9.9.2 Moving scoring targets, which do not comply with the above criteria are considered disappearing targets and will not incur failure to shoot at or miss penalties except where Rule 9.9.3 applies.

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement.

So -- activate the disappearing target and it's your choice to shoot at it or not. No penalties for FTE or misses apply. (We use NPM on the scoresheet.)

Don't activate the target -- penalties apply for FTE and Misses (real -10 penalties for each missing hit...)

There once was a rifle stage with a real zig-zag pattern between parallel strands of caution tape. you had to engage targets on both sides of the chute. The chute culminated in a wall that hid a dual target bobbler that was activated by knocking down the port cover in the wall. It was a long run --- maybe 50 yards total, but a relatively short stage otherwise ~ 30 rounds. I shot a couple of targets that were only visible from the start position, ran about five yards to the first corner, from which I could see everything else, including slivers of the D-zone of both bobbler targets, hosed everything else from there; then ran up to the wall off the clock and activated the movers....

Upshot -- no penalties and a smoking time. Downside -- being referred to as a gamer the rest of the day.....

People get really jealous when you apply a solution they wished they had come up with. Game on!

[Nik Habicht]

JThompson, on Sep 2 2009, 11:40 AM, said:

You still need to "activate" it but that's it. Failure to use whatever prop activates it would be an FTE.

The part in bold had me confused --- I wasn't sure if it was an omission on your part, or if you'd gotten a different take on the rules from someone....