[Boats]

Another one for the experts, Saw a shooter spraying his hands with some sports stick stuff last IDPA match.

Whats the call ?

Boats

[GmanCdp]

down here in the south,we call it "suntan lotion for the Glock"...when its humid,i use it all the time and also used at the nationals ..nothing was said ...

This post has been edited by GmanCdp: 28 August 2009 - 06:42 AM

[Jeff9mmM&P]

Boats, on Aug 28 2009, 08:20 AM, said:

Another one for the experts, Saw a shooter spraying his hands with some sports stick stuff last IDPA match.

Whats the call ?

Boats

Yes it is legal for USPSA but I don't know about IDPA .

Pistol pro grip

This post has been edited by Jeff9mmM&P: 28 August 2009 - 06:28 AM

[lugnut]

If it's not legal in IDPA it would tough to enforce anyway. They could put it on in the car, bathroom, etc.

[MichiganShootist]

It's legal in USPSA and IDPA.

[Chills1994]

For me, "therein lies the rub"...."the spirit of IDPA" vs. the "letter of the law" in IDPA. Is it perfectly legal to do that according to the letter of the law in IDPA rulebook? Well, I don't see where it is prohibited, per se, explicitly.

Does it violate the "spirit of IDPA"? Yeah, I think it does.

I think somewhere in the IDPA rulebook, it does say something along the lines of "no competition only equipment".

"Excuse, Mr. Mugger Bad Guy Thug, give me just a second... I have to put on my Pro Grip lotion before I can draw my pistola and shoot you."

Pardon the sarcasm... but also somewhere in the rule book the phrase "represent real world encounters" can be found.

You all can wear your Pro-grip if you all will let me wear my Nike Landsharks... does that sound like a deal?

[larry cazes]

Both cleats and pro grip sound reasonable to me for both sports. Fodder for the next revision of the rules?

[lugnut]

larry cazes, on Aug 28 2009, 01:45 PM, said:

Both cleats and pro grip sound reasonable to me for both sports. Fodder for the next revision of the rules?

I believe cleats are explicitly called out in the rule book.

[bkeeler]

Chills1994, on Aug 28 2009, 12:34 PM, said:

For me, "therein lies the rub"...."the spirit of IDPA" vs. the "letter of the law" in IDPA. Is it perfectly legal to do that according to the letter of the law in IDPA rulebook? Well, I don't see where it is prohibited, per se, explicitly.

Does it violate the "spirit of IDPA"? Yeah, I think it does.

I think somewhere in the IDPA rulebook, it does say something along the lines of "no competition only equipment".

"Excuse, Mr. Mugger Bad Guy Thug, give me just a second... I have to put on my Pro Grip lotion before I can draw my pistola and shoot you."

Pardon the sarcasm... but also somewhere in the rule book the phrase "represent real world encounters" can be found.

You all can wear your Pro-grip if you all will let me wear my Nike Landsharks... does that sound like a deal?

It could be called a safety issue.

BK

[Carlos]

Chills1994, on Aug 28 2009, 09:34 PM, said:

Does it violate the "spirit of IDPA"? Yeah, I think it does.

I think somewhere in the IDPA rulebook, it does say something along the lines of "no competition only equipment".

. . . You all can wear your Pro-grip if you all will let me wear my Nike Landsharks... does that sound like a deal?

Agree & agree. At a minumum, the S.O. can issue a valid FTDR for using special "competition spray" that one would not walk around wearing on the street.

No go on the "safety issue" argument either. That argument was tried and failed when we discussed prohibited cleats. Falling down in mud while trying to run is a lot more common than dropping a gun due to wet/sweaty hands. If wet hands caused frequently dropped guns, then all shooting sports would be cancelled on rainy days due to the "safety issue."

Save the competition spray for other games.

[Boats]

I don't plan to use the stuff. High power rifle it's allowed and a lot of guys belive in it. I say it's a band aid for poor grip and positon. Had I been the RSO I would have called him on it.

Boats

[PHolsted]

Just a few threads down from this was a thread I started about gloves. It was ruled from IDPA that gloves are allowed. It would not be far of a stretch to see this also accepted.

But to me I see it as competition only equipment.

This post has been edited by PHolsted: 28 August 2009 - 12:12 PM

[JFlowers]

Devils Advocate here....

Say Shooter Bobby drops his gun and its discharges on impact shooting Spectator John. Now Spectator John's lawyer is going to go after the deepest pockets and since Shooter Bobby, like the rest of us is not rich, they are going to add the Whatever Shooting Club and Whichever Shooting Association to the list. Now how will it play for the jury when poor Shooter Bobby, on the stand, says that he dropped the gun because it was 99 and his hands were sweaty and the Whichever Shooting Society did not allow the use of sweat wicking substances. So now the lawyer is telling the jury that the Whichever Shooting Society (who has the deepest pockets in this case) knew that sweat was an issue, but choose to outlaw the use of hand drying/sweat wicking substances which are used in every major sport as a safety issue.

Thats why I think talc powder, Pro grip, etc and all are very different safety issue from cleats.

[Gregg K]

It's in pretty wide use at the sanctioned matches. I don't think that it's any more "competition only" than a lot of other things that are accepted.

I don't use the Pro Grip but I have no problem with those that do. I will certainly never call anyone on it unless it gets put in the rule book.

[Loves2Shoot]

IDPA is not training for the "streets" so any argument that contains "you can't do it because you wouldn't do it on the street" should be ignored. They have a rule book, those are the rules for the game. If the rule book does not address what you want to do (ie. using ProGrip or something) then e-mail the folks at IDPA HQ to get their take on it. Then if they reply it is ok to do, then print it out and put it in your shooting bag.

This seems a bit extreme to have to do, but the rule book is not very tight and with the FTDR out there it is better safe than sorry.

Ie. I inquired about tape on my shooting glasses and they said opaque tape is legal, black tape is not, so I decided to frost my shooting glasses instead of having to explain it to any uninformed SO.

Wipe your hands with an alcohol wipe and it will dry them out for a stage if you need to. Since they hand them out at most dining places I doubt anyone could argue they are "competition equipment."

Personally, I think it is a safety issue and think banning it would be counter productive.

ps. On the shoes, cleats aren't allowed, but off road running shoes are just as aggressive and you don't slip on wet boards with them.

This post has been edited by Loves2Shoot: 28 August 2009 - 12:25 PM

[bkeeler]

Chills1994, on Aug 28 2009, 12:34 PM, said:

I think somewhere in the IDPA rulebook, it does say something along the lines of "no competition only equipment".

This is what does not make since to me "no competition only equipment".

Down loaded ammunition does not fall under this rule.

I know the minimum power floor is 125000 and ESR and CDP are 165000 but when you put something in the rules that says "no competition only equipment" it makes me go

Federal personal defense loads 40 S&W JHP 180gr P40HS1 is at about 180000 PF

Federal 9mm JHP 147gr. P9HS2 is at about 147000

Do you carry your reloads or factory full power ammunition?

At least make the power floor a little higher for ESP ,SSP and SSR maybe even the other two ESR,CDP.

I know rules are rules but it just does not make sense.

BK

[GmanCdp]

qoute from L2S:IDPA is not training for the "streets" so any argument that contains "you can't do it because you wouldn't do it on the street" should be ignored. They have a rule book, those are the rules for the game. If the rule book does not address what you want to do (ie. using ProGrip or something) then e-mail the folks at IDPA HQ to get their take on it. Then if they reply it is ok to do, then print it out and put it in your shooting bag.
exactly....
i've always wondered how many would showup to an idpa match,with 1 to 3 shot max scenarios,90% of them at 3 ft or less, to make it like for the streets....i know Indiana did one last yr with a 12rnd limit,and it worked out ok,but when guys start talking about idpa is shooting to win a gun fight...i'll walk away and go ahead and play the game...there is nothing wrong in shooting every COF as tactifully as you like,but please dont bust another shooter who is there to play each cof as fast as he can...
and this grip conversion ,while legal is way more noticeable then pro grip....

Attached File(s)

•  grip.bmp (1.37MB)
  Number of downloads: 59

[Aristotle]

Boats, on Aug 28 2009, 11:30 AM, said:

Had I been the RSO I would have called him on it.

Boats

At which point I would have asked you to get the RM and for you to "site me the rules" in the rulebook. Either it's in the rulebook or it's not. We cannot administer rules based on our perception of the rules.

This is a game, there's absolutely no way around this little fact.

[steel1212]

I think I was just in a similar thread about something similarly not in the rule book. For the guys that say you don't use it on the streets, do you use your carry holster, carry gun, carry ammo EVERYTIME you shoot IDPA? Not trying to start a fight but unless you do your kind of being contradictory. I shoot IDPA with a couple guys that shoot their carry rigs, short of the ammo as its to precious now days, and I really respect them for that, I'm not going to because I don't have to. I'm faster out of kydex, I have a better grip with progrip, and I have better traction with my cross trainers.

As for the progrip....who says I don't work in a chalk factory and I constantly have it on my hands....that makes it real world right

[Shootingirons45]

This whole thread seems silly, spurious. Why is it folks are so worried about what others do instead of focusing on improving their own performance? The rulebook is there. Read it. Do not subtract from the rules and play by the rules. On the other hand, do not make up "rules" you think "ought" to be there. I guarantee you this much. You could hamstring the better shooters and they will still beat you. Why? Because they are concerned with performance and not perception.

[Chris Christian]

+1 to Aristotle... he nailed it. IDPA is a game... nothing more. It will remain a game until the targets develop the ability to think and move in Real Time... and shoot back. As a game, it needs Rules. Those Rules are in the book. If the Rules are followed the game can be played on a level field. The Rule Book says nothing... one way or the other.. about hand stick spray. Ergo, not addressed, so yes legal. I get so tired of inexperienced SOs telling me " Well, there could be this...." To which I normally state... " Well the COF and Rule Book says there isn't 'could be this'." Run the match by the Rules. If the Rules don't suit you (and there are so many gray areas in the Rule book that it is laughable... and a new Rule Book is being developed) then pick another game.
Question? What is the definition of a "Gamer"? Answer: What a Marksman Class SO calls the Master Class shooter he's currently running through the COF.
Chris Christian: IDPA Master & SO

[Carlos]

Loves2Shoot, on Aug 28 2009, 11:23 PM, said:

IDPA is not training for the "streets" so any argument that contains "you can't do it because you wouldn't do it on the street" should be ignored. They have a rule book, those are the rules for the game.

Really? I just double-checked the IDPA MAIN WEBSITE, and that is NOT the impression I got about the sport at all; the very first words on the site are:

"The International Defensive Pistol Association (IDPA) is the governing body of a shooting sport that simulates self-defense scenarios and real life encounters. "

Are you saying that no one will read "training for the street" into IDPA's stated purpose of: "simulates self-defense scenarios and real life encounters." ?? Coulda fooled me. I am the only one reading it this way?

Link also starts out: "The main goal is to test the skill and ability of the individual, not equipment or gamesmanship. “Competition only” equipment is not permitted in this sport."

True, the rules don't cover everything. The gaps in the rules are the reason there is the FTDR. Using "competition only" equipment = FTDR. It is clear that grip spray is part of the "competition only" equipment to which the above-linked site refers.

[Shootingirons45]

There's no arguing with a Corporal mentality that is convinced that his is the only "real" way..

[steel1212]

Carlos, on Aug 28 2009, 05:49 PM, said:

Loves2Shoot, on Aug 28 2009, 11:23 PM, said:

IDPA is not training for the "streets" so any argument that contains "you can't do it because you wouldn't do it on the street" should be ignored. They have a rule book, those are the rules for the game.

Really? I just double-checked the IDPA MAIN WEBSITE, and that is NOT the impression I got about the sport at all; the very first words on the site are:

"The International Defensive Pistol Association (IDPA) is the governing body of a shooting sport that simulates self-defense scenarios and real life encounters. "

Are you saying that no one will read "training for the street" into IDPA's stated purpose of: "simulates self-defense scenarios and real life encounters." ?? Coulda fooled me. I am the only one reading it this way?

Link also starts out: "The main goal is to test the skill and ability of the individual, not equipment or gamesmanship. “Competition only” equipment is not permitted in this sport."

True, the rules don't cover everything. The gaps in the rules are the reason there is the FTDR. Using "competition only" equipment = FTDR. It is clear that grip spray is part of the "competition only" equipment to which the above-linked site refers.

Carlos, what if I come out of the gym after lifting weights and have chalk on my hands and need to use my gun to defend myself. What if I'm at a rock climbing competition and have chalk on my hands and need to defend myself on the way back to my car. Pro grip and the like is simply liquid chalk when it dries you have a powder that drys your hands. Now if somebody is putting a glue like substance on their hands that is tacky and sticks to the gun, I would see that as cheating. All PROgrip is doing is drying your hands out so that YOU can grip the gun.

[CDPMatt]

Aristotle, on Aug 28 2009, 02:06 PM, said:

Boats, on Aug 28 2009, 11:30 AM, said:

Had I been the RSO I would have called him on it.

Boats

At which point I would have asked you to get the RM and for you to "site me the rules" in the rulebook. Either it's in the rulebook or it's not. We cannot administer rules based on our perception of the rules.

This is a game, there's absolutely no way around this little fact.

Sure we can....and it falls under "Competition Only Equipment", if IDPA didn't want CSO's, SO's and MD's to percieve they would have had a list of equipment prohibited as it is we do not have a list and as a CSO, SO, or MD if you percieve it as such then make the call. I don't know whether it's legal or not but I saw a shooter (new SO) shooting today at a Regional I was shooting today and working tomorrow and I asked around if it was legal.... I got a resounding "NO". Robert will be there tomorrow and I'll ask him.