[NRAActionPistol]

All,

It's that time of year again, in our on-going effort to make NRA Action Pistol, the fastest growing shooting sport, and making it easier for all to get out and compete. We are asking for any suggestions for the Committee meeting that is tentatively scheduled for Oct 17th.

Please keep in mind any suggestion has to be for the good of the sport, to make it grow and prosper. We are NOT IDPA, IPSC or USPSA, and while we want to integrate in these disiplines we can not all use the same rules, it can't and won't work.

We also will continue the have (3) three Divisions: Open, Metallic & Production, they are all different, we will not make any of these like the other, the purpose is to make it easier for all to compete, not just at the NRA Bianchi Cup, but at the Club & Association level primarily.

Any viable suggestion will be considered and discussed.

Thank you for your time, and thank you for all your advice and help growing this sport. Ask your local club to start holding matches, we can assist you in making it easier, but local clubs need to hold the matches.

Tom...
thughes@nrahq.org

[Flexmoney]

Tom,

I have had shooters tell me that "the mover makes the match"...here, locally.

That may be. But, I think it kills the idea of a club starting up AP if they think they need to have a mover built...or only run the 4 main cof's that they run at the Cup.

I guess I would have you (NRA) ask..."What can we do to make it easy for clubs to hold AP matches?"

[KMacari]

Flexmoney, on Aug 24 2009, 03:48 PM, said:

Tom,

I have had shooters tell me that "the mover makes the match"...here, locally.

That may be. But, I think it kills the idea of a club starting up AP if they think they need to have a mover built...or only run the 4 main cof's that they run at the Cup.

I guess I would have you (NRA) ask..."What can we do to make it easy for clubs to hold AP matches?"

Indeed the mover is one of the more 'entertaining' COF within NRA action pistol, but it's definitely not required to be able to hold an AP match. I'm pretty certain that Tom previously offered to approved match requests that did not include the mover. Although the norm is to shoot the 4 main COF's that are at the cup, that is definitely not required for AP matches. Tom could speak about the requirements for a registered tournament (regional), but for state and other approved matches, it's pretty common for clubs to substitute 2 different events.

Purchasing a mover can be rather pricy for a club just starting out, but I can say from experience that you could build one pretty inexpensively on your own. We have a 4 motor mover at our club, which basically cost us the lumber and cable to construct, and I have one that I've used for 3 years using a garage door opener. It took a bit of playing around to get the timing right, but basically didnt cost much of anything. Plus, it's pretty much portable (easy setup/tear down), and I think that would be appealing to a club starting out.

I know I'm a little off-topic here, but I'd be more than willing to document plans and sent to any club looking to start up an AP program.

Ken

[NRAActionPistol]

KMacari, on Aug 24 2009, 04:19 PM, said:

Flexmoney, on Aug 24 2009, 03:48 PM, said:

I have had shooters tell me that "the mover makes the match"...here, locally. "What can we do to make it easy for clubs to hold AP matches?"

Indeed the mover is one of the more 'entertaining' COF within NRA action pistol, but it's definitely not required to be able to hold an AP match. I'm pretty certain that Tom previously offered to approved match requests that did not include the mover. Although the norm is to shoot the 4 main COF's that are at the cup, that is definitely not required for AP matches. Tom could speak about the requirements for a registered tournament (regional), but for state and other approved matches, it's pretty common for clubs to substitute 2 different events.

I know I'm a little off-topic here, but I'd be more than willing to document plans and sent to any club looking to start up an AP program.

Ken

Thank you both for the comments, Ken is right, we will approve any NRA Action Pistol Match as long as you run at least (2) two of the Events that are run at the Championship (NRA Bianchi Cup) that leaves 14 other COF to choose from. We have all seen on here competitors asking where to compete, we just need the Clubs to run the matches, there is an audience out there just waiting for someone to run the matches. We can make it easier by adding a Production Division and lowering the event requirement, but we can't come to the clubs and run the matches. This is a perfect time to grow the Club membership, this is a perfect time to get more people shooting, the more people we have competing the better the gun owning community looks to the press.

Charlotte, NC, Cumberland, MD and Ken's Club in NY are running matches now, we need TX, FL, OK & everywhere else to run matches again, there is a need. The NRA and the Competitions Division will help in any way that we can.

Tom...

[Flexmoney]

My local club shoots Los Alamitos (instead of the 50y practical) and sometimes runs the Chapman Barricade (for a bit of variety).


I think y'all missed my point. (and I didn't make it well...so that would make sense)


I know that there are other cof's. But, you aren't trying to reach me.



OK...let's go with your "we just need clubs to run matches".

Why would clubs choose to do so? What is the up side for them? What does it take to run the matches? How can we let the clubs know about all this?

If you have good answers to all of that, then perhaps it then becomes a communication and markets challenge?


I hope I'm not coming off as critical or confrotational. I think you are making moves in the right direction by coming to places like this and asking for input and pushing the Production division.

I've been in this part of the forum recently trying to churn some discussion (notice the new sticky threads and such)...trying to drum up some interest. Sure seems like a quiet bunch of folks.

[JFlowers]

Tom,
Can you supply or point me to information on the NRA AP match in Charlotte, NC?

There is definitely a communication issue somewhere (and it could just be me) when an NRA member and USPSA shooter living in Charlotte does not know that there is an AP match locally. Then again it could also be conflicting with the rich shooting match schedule we have in the Charlotte area so its gotta lost in the noise.

[sperman]

JFlowers, on Aug 24 2009, 07:51 PM, said:

Tom,
Can you supply or point me to information on the NRA AP match in Charlotte, NC?

There is definitely a communication issue somewhere (and it could just be me) when an NRA member and USPSA shooter living in Charlotte does not know that there is an AP match locally. Then again it could also be conflicting with the rich shooting match schedule we have in the Charlotte area so its gotta lost in the noise.

James,

Rowan County runs two stages the last Saturday of every month.  (I believe Los Alamitos and Falling Plates.)  I'm not sure if this is a sanctioned NRA match, but it follows the NRA rules.


I'm probably going this Saturday if you are interested.

[Griz]

JFlowers, on Aug 24 2009, 07:51 PM, said:

Tom,
Can you supply or point me to information on the NRA AP match in Charlotte, NC?

There is definitely a communication issue somewhere (and it could just be me) when an NRA member and USPSA shooter living in Charlotte does not know that there is an AP match locally. Then again it could also be conflicting with the rich shooting match schedule we have in the Charlotte area so its gotta lost in the noise.

The NRA approved matches are at CPRC. http://www.cr-pc.org/

This sport can spread virally, that's how it came to CPRC. The match director is a college buddy of mine who I talked into shooting a few matches at my home club in Bedford, Va. He got hooked and started hosting his own matches in Charlotte. I helped him RO the first couple of mathes but now he has other people in Charlotte hooked and I can go there and just SHOOT!!!

It didn't take a big outlay of cash. He slapped together some wobbly barricades out of 2x4s, they already had a plate rack and a barely adequate mover. It's not perfect, but he has his AP program off the ground and participation is growing.


My suggestion for the rules committee is to make the rules CLEAR and CONSISTANT. (For example, on barricades with Metallic sights, the rules in the rule book are absolutely clear, but someone did not like the masterful technique that Jerry M was using on the practice range at the Cup, so they changed the rules the DAY BEFORE THE MATCH. I wasn't shooting metallic class, so it didn't effect me at all, but that left a very bad taste in my mouth. I assume that this unwritten change will be in effect at future Bianchi Cups. The change to the barricade rules needs to be added to the rule book and the match director at the Cup needs to avoid changing the rules at the last minute. No one wants to play a game when they can't be sure of the rules.)

[Jadeslade]

What was the great Jerry M doing??

[Action Pistolero]

Flex,
You sure know how to ask the hard questions.

"Why would clubs choose to run matches?"
1) They have members that are unable to do the run and gun thing.
2) Members are interested in a more accuracy oriented sport.
3) They want more variety in the courses of fire.
4) They are not interested in planning and setting up elaborate stages.

"What is the up side for them?"
1) Depending on where the club is located, it could be the only club to run an A/P match. Therfore, it could be a draw for shooters outside their club. More revenue.
2) Having matches sanctioned by a national organization.
3) Club matches advertised in NRA publications.
4) Increase in membership.

"What does it take to run the matches?"
1) A plate rack
2) A timer
3) Target stands
4) Targets

"How can we let the clubs know about this?"
1) This forum does the best job of it.
2) Word of mouth from other shooters like Griz's example.
3) NRA publications. This is how I got started. I didn't know the club existed until I found a listing for the match.


Tom,
Thanks for not mentioning the matches in VA. We have 54 guns for the regional and counting.
Part of the problem is we don't have a reliable place where the matches can be found besides the shooters. I got my September issue of Shooting Sports and it doesn't list Action Pistol matches at all.

Here is a picture of Jerry and his Barricade technique.

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[oldtrooper]

The constant adjustment of the rules is the most aggravating part of the Cup. You can go prone at any point but the next year you can only go prone at one point of your choosing. When a shooter learns an innovative way shoot an event that is safe but makes sense someone whines and the rules are changed to appease the whiner.

[goldfieldshooter]

Billie is dead right in that constant juggling of the rules for what ever reason has been a big problem in the last few years.
Apart from the grip safety and 2lb trigger, the rules are as good as we have had for a very long time due to some good work by Tom and the shooter reps on the committee . Due to your sue the A**e off everyone that makes a mistake society I can't see the forementioned rules being changed, so leave the status quo for a few years and see the results of your labours grow the sport. The biggest effort anyone can make to the growrh of AP is to invite another shooter to join them to shoot on a competition day. I have picked up shooters, transported them to the range: I have even cast their projectiles and delivered them to their house. It works,try it, you make new friends and even get a buzz out of seeing them improve month by month.

My 2c
Coatesy

[xsniper]

goldfieldshooter, on Aug 25 2009, 05:29 AM, said:

Billie is dead right in that constant juggling of the rules for what ever reason has been a big problem in the last few years.
Apart from the grip safety and 2lb trigger, the rules are as good as we have had for a very long time due to some good work by Tom and the shooter reps on the committee . Due to your sue the A**e off everyone that makes a mistake society I can't see the forementioned rules being changed, so leave the status quo for a few years and see the results of your labours grow the sport. The biggest effort anyone can make to the growrh of AP is to invite another shooter to join them to shoot on a competition day. I have picked up shooters, transported them to the range: I have even cast their projectiles and delivered them to their house. It works,try it, you make new friends and even get a buzz out of seeing them improve month by month.

My 2c
Coatesy

I have been away from the Cup for a long long time (1995), I am guessing from this and other posts that there is a 2lb trigger for open guns and the grip safety must be functional? What was the rule change about having to call your prone position? I guess I better check the rules instead of just practicing the way I used to do things.

[Chuck Anderson]

So for a new shooter/match director interested in participating in Action Pistol, where do I find information regarding this event. I managed to find the rules on the NRA site and print them out. (which was a pain in the butt). I've seen the Shooting USA episodes on Bianchi Cup. Does the NRA or any other group have some resources on how to start a match at my club? Ideas on marketing, set up? Is there hot setup for running the practical and barricade events? Multiple shooters on the line or single setups. I think I'm a bit limited on the plates and mover if we do it. Are there specifications for the mover? Is there a specific brand that should be used for the match? Where do we find targets? I'm sure with some digging most of this info is out there. Just thinking if it was available in one location you might get some new MD's and clubs stepping up.

[Alan550]

Chuck Anderson, on Aug 25 2009, 04:11 PM, said:

So for a new shooter/match director interested in participating in Action Pistol, where do I find information regarding this event. I managed to find the rules on the NRA site and print them out. (which was a pain in the butt). I've seen the Shooting USA episodes on Bianchi Cup. Does the NRA or any other group have some resources on how to start a match at my club? Ideas on marketing, set up? Is there hot setup for running the practical and barricade events? Multiple shooters on the line or single setups. I think I'm a bit limited on the plates and mover if we do it. Are there specifications for the mover? Is there a specific brand that should be used for the match? Where do we find targets? I'm sure with some digging most of this info is out there. Just thinking if it was available in one location you might get some new MD's and clubs stepping up.

Chuck,

Tom @ NRA should be able to help. He's NRAActionPistol on here.

We run as many as 4 at a time on Practical. You need a 50-yd range and about 36 feet wide if you have that much room in order to run that many at once. The targets are 18" wide and must be 3' apart. That adds up to 6' and I try to allow about 4' between targets for the next shooter. For Barricade, you can build them like a 2-wheeled cart and move them between the firing distances to make it more economical. Make them out of angle iron with plywood faces. Put a heavy mesh steel in the bottom of the shooting platform and you're good to go.

Multiple shooters can be done unless there comes a question of late shots. In that case we run them one-at-a-time to eliminate any questions.

The mover has to travel 60' between "barricades" of some sort. Some ranges just put up tarps to block the end of travel on both sides. There are several mfgs of "movers" out there and Tom can head you in the right direction on that. You can get targets at Target Barn and Speedwell Targets that I know of. There are probably others as well.

As mentioned elsewhere in this forum, you don't have to run either the mover or plates to have an AP match approved by NRA for local matches. They only set a requirement for State and Regional (Registered) matches. You saw all the COFs when you downloaded the rules so you already know what's in there. Find some that work for the facilities that you already have and work your way up from there if there's enough interest to do that. When you run your first Approved match, tell prospective shooters that you can guarantee them at least a Marksman classification for anyone who shoots your match! You don't have to tell them that Marksman is from 0-80%!

Word of mouth is the best advertisement you can get, of course, since NRA does practically nothing to let people know about AP. As Action Pistolero mentioned, there was no listing for AP in the latest Shooting Sports magazine from NRA. I personally know of 3 Regional and 2 State matches in the next 60 days that I'll be attending. We really have it good here in the Mid-Atlantic states when it comes to AP. Just since the Cup in May I've shot at 8 AP matches, and over the next couple of months, between now and Halloween, there's only one weekend without an AP match that I'll be shooting. As the saying goes, "If you build it, they will come". This time last year there were no matches at Charlotte, NC or Cumberland MD. Now they have monthly AP shoots. The one in NC got started as Griz said from one of his college buddies shooting at our club and getting hooked! Now he runs them at his home club, one of the largest in NC, and some of their shooters travel the 4+ hours to our range to shoot as well!

The problem that you may run into is people showing up at the first one and not being interested enough to come back. A lot of that is up to the Match Director and how the match is run. We charge $20.00 for the first gun and $10.00 for any after that. We supply hot dogs, chips and water at lunch time, and so far our attendance is holding or growing. You have to send the NRA $4.50 per gun, and targets run about $.65-$.75 each so you can afford to feed 'em. We also "break" the rules a bit on number of shots per target. We put 24 on each at Barricade and Practical and run the whole 48 on one Mover target to save money that way. Running the 4 Bianchi events, that works out to 5 targets per gun.

Let me know if I can get you any more info, as I'll be glad to help in any way I can.

Alan~^~

[Action Pistolero]

xsniper,
The trigger must be 2 lbs and the grip safety must work.

You can go prone on the plates from 15 yards on back. Same thing on the practical.

On the barricade, you can use the barricade for support but in production and metallic you cannot grab the barricade. You must stand in the box. No more kneeling in the box.

The mover you must stand within the box. As if any of us could sit or kneel within that box.

You don't have to "call" anywhere you want to go prone. If it's allowed at the yard line then you just do what you want.



Chuck,

Alan chimed in while I was typing. The only thing that I would add is that the mover needs 120 ft horizonally.

It's really not hard to get started and you can get set up with a minimum of equipment.

[Chuck Anderson]

Is it 120 or 60' on the mover? I'm assuming there is a set speed for the mover? Otherwise leads would change. How do you set this? Anybody know the brand of mover they use at the Cup? If I'm gonna do it, I'd just as soon do it right. I figure I can probably figure most of this out on my own. I'm just thinking if the NRA had all of this information in one spot, maybe a guide to starting an AP Discipline.

[Alan550]

What Action Pistolero was referring to is the necessary distance to set up a Mover. The target is only exposed for 60' but you need the excess to hide it after the run. It travels at 10'/second and you can set that up with an ordinary 1725 RPM electric motor with the correct size diameter pulley. I don't have that info handy at the moment, but can get it for you if you need it.

At the Cup, they have 4 mover motors and 4 carriers so there's no delay to change targets between the different firing distances. That gets expensive for a local range! If it's "First Class" you're after, that's it! Probably cost more than the plate racks in the long run and you really don't need the 4-motor setup like they have. One will do fine for local shooting unless you plan at some point to run a bigger match, i.e. State or Regional level. Even then you can get by with a single carrier and motor setup.

Contact Tom Hughes at NRA and he can fill you in on all the details of getting set up to run these shoots.

Alan~^~

[Flexmoney]

Chuck Anderson, on Aug 25 2009, 11:46 AM, said:

I'm just thinking if the NRA had all of this information in one spot, maybe a guide to starting an AP Discipline.

Right.

And, that brings us back to the point if this thread, I believe.

[Flexmoney]

Alan550, on Aug 25 2009, 11:07 AM, said:

We charge $20.00 for the first gun and $10.00 for any after that. We supply hot dogs, chips and water at lunch time, and so far our attendance is holding or growing. You have to send the NRA $4.50 per gun, and targets run about $.65-$.75 each so you can afford to feed 'em.

Ouch. That is ~ $8 per head.

[NRAActionPistol]

Flexmoney, on Aug 25 2009, 01:56 PM, said:

Chuck Anderson, on Aug 25 2009, 11:46 AM, said:

I'm just thinking if the NRA had all of this information in one spot, maybe a guide to starting an AP Discipline.

Right.

And, that brings us back to the point if this thread, I believe.

I personaly do not control, the website or it's contents or the way it is layed out, is it perfect NO! Can you reach the NRA Action Pistol guy? Yes, I will do anything that I can to make it easier for anyone or club/range to run NRA AP matches. I am on here most of the time, and I can always be reached at the office 703.267.1478 or by email thughes@nrahq.org

There is an unlimited amount of experience on here also & I applaud each of you for stepping up to make this the fastest growing shooting sport in the world!

Alan550, on Aug 25 2009, 11:59 AM, said:

Contact Tom Hughes at NRA and he can fill you in on all the details of getting set up to run these shoots.

Alan~^~

Thank you all, as all of you know the best way to get things done anywhere, is to put your heads together to come up with a plan.

I have said this before, most of you have more experience running and shooting NRA Action Pistol, I knew I could count on all of you to help us build this sport up to where is should be. Are we perfect, NO, are we growing, YES!

There will be a press release about the 2010 NRA Bianchi Cup next month that will probably get more people shooting that Championship, and that is great, but that is NOT perfect, we need local ranges for people to practice and hone their skills and most importantly make the sport grow! My job here is the NRA Action Pistol Coordinator, the NRA Bianchi Cup is a small amount of that job responsibility. With the re-growth of the Championship comes interest in NRA Action Pistol, both in the Shooting Community, Press & the Industry. The time is now for ranges to look into running matches, all your members need to do is try it, they can use their carry gun now!

There are plenty of motivating factors for local clubs to hold these matches, the more people that shoot, the more members you will get, if the sport grows enough and you have a following at your Club, you will get more industry support. There is a want & need out there, I wish I had a dollar for every time I had to tell a perspective NRA AP competitor that no club or range was running NRA AP.

Chuck, email us your address we will send you all you need to know about getting you started, if you need anything else, feel free to ask on here, or email me anytime. thughes@nrahq.org

We are a team, we can get it done, it should not be why we can't do it, it should be why can't we do it! From the desk of my favorite President......

"There's no limit to what a man can do or where he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit".
Ronald Reagan

[Flexmoney]

NRAActionPistol, on Aug 25 2009, 02:11 PM, said:

I personaly do not control, the website or it's contents or the way it is layed out, is it perfect NO!

Sure, but you are asking for suggestions to take to the meeting, right?

"Web site sucks" is a common theme in most of this stuff we do. What it means is that... "I actually tried to get info on your organization/event/program, but I couldn't find what I was looking for. Or, what I did find, was marginal."

Often, the guys that can have the power to make it better, don't have the we know-how. (I can sure understand that).

So, it doesn't get improved.

FWIW...I think the best mediums are forums (similar to this one...as it allows dialog) and youtube videos. Both of those are easy. Laying out a good webpage and keeping it up to date...probably a lot more difficult.


Once again...thanks for seeking input and listening. Sorry if it seems like you are getting a hard time. I don't think anybody means to be overly critical. It's just the nature of "suggestion boxes".

[Resjudicata]

I will second the website upgrade. I have sought info on the NRA website about AP multiple times and it is simply one of the worst websites for conveying information out there. I can't even find a way to download the rules for AP. It appears that I have to buy them. If that is the case then besides revising the website the rules should be available for free download in PDF format (at least for NRA members). There really is no excuse why the NRA should demand payment for a copy of the rules that govern AP.

I am very lucky here in that I have a local club that hosts AP complete with the plates and mover. However, if I were going to try and get a group started doing this then it is almost impossible to just find the information about what the courses of fire are and the basic rules for running a match.

USPSA is much more user friendly and really should be looked to as an example of how to provide information to prospective shooters/participants.

Chris

[Alan550]

Try this link: http://www.nrahq.org...ct-%20index.pdf

It has the complete AP rules in PDF as you suggested. I admit the site isn't the most user-friendly on the web but the info is there if you look hard enough.

Alan~^~

[Flexmoney]

Who the heck wants to look hard enough?

Lose that mindset if you want new people and ranges!!!