[rhgunguy]

Ok, I have a used Witness match that has had some work done and it is a sweet gun. But I am thinking of selling it to buy a limited gun to replace my G35. My question is which better overall, the Limited or the TS? I am looking at all angles so I am also considering keeping the Match and upgrading it.

What is the best option as far as which is the best gun and which is the most economical for a full set-up.

[UW Mitch]

Since you're asking in the CZ you may already have made your mind up. Consider that if you're already shooting a Witness Match (what caliber BTW) you may be able to reuse holster and mag pouches if you get a Witness Limited. Possibly even mags if you've got a Match in 40S&W. I was happy with my Witness Elite Limited. Great service from Henning on getting set up with all the right stuff. When it came down to it, I got into limited for a few hundred dollars less than going the STI route. But now I'm having JPL build me a custom STI-based gun for limited.

~Mitch

[Maks_H]

I would say go with Witness with Henning mags. CZ TS is a great gun, but parts like to brake a lot. My shooting teammate cracked two barrels in a year and a half. Last one cracked at 9k.

[CocoBolo]

I started Limited with the CZ 75 TS, great gun right out of the box. The only real disadvantage I can think of is that you must load ammo to factory length and I found that you cannot use anything other than jacketed bullets. I believe the Limited has a deeper chamber and longer mags so that you can load out to 1.180 or so. I have RO'ed Henning (Double Tap) and he sure shot his Limited very well and quickly.

I shoot Precision Moly bullets and prefer those since you can drop 1/2 gr from the load making it softer and flatter to shoot. I moved to the STI Edge and have not looked back. I will say that you can probably shoot the TS faster than the Edge because of its light slide and great balance, but I just shoot better with a sliding trigger. I had no trouble with my TS and it sold well to another happy CZ shooter.

When it gets down to it, its what feels good, almost all guns with a modicum of reliability and accuracy will work in the sport with a little trigger work.

[Walküre]

Maks_H, on Aug 19 2009, 03:16 AM, said:

I would say go with Witness with Henning mags. CZ TS is a great gun, but parts like to brake a lot. My shooting teammate cracked two barrels in a year and a half. Last one cracked at 9k.

Seems odd... the .40S&W barrels are known to crack eventually, but the round count is typically around the 60k+ mark. Slide stops are also known to break, but this is actually a fairly common part to go in most heavy-use pistols; plus, you get three spares with a new TS, so no excuses about not having the parts when the inevitable happens (you also get a spare extractor as well).

Overall price is right about the same - so which one is less expensive as a whole will matter how much extra work you want to put into it.

Mags are about equivalent, in terms of both capacity and price. The Henning mags do hold one more round - though Stuart says that he's managed to tweak his TS mags to get 21 as well (I don't feel like pushing mine to the absolute limit - I'm happy with very consistent, reliable performance with 20+1).

[mpolans]

I'd go with the CZ TS. Incredible trigger out of the box, longer sight radius, and very good customer service compared to the alternative's U.S. importer.

This post has been edited by mpolans: 19 August 2009 - 06:28 PM

[Jeff Matzka]

CocoBolo, on Aug 19 2009, 09:10 AM, said:

I started Limited with the CZ 75 TS, great gun right out of the box. The only real disadvantage I can think of is that you must load ammo to factory length and I found that you cannot use anything other than jacketed bullets.

I'm thinking of shooting Production with a CZ. I'm curious - why only jacketed? Is this a condition that exists with all of the various CZ models, or just the Tactical Sport? I was planning on an SP-01 Shadow.

[SLM]

Jeff Matzka, on Sep 1 2009, 09:11 AM, said:

CocoBolo, on Aug 19 2009, 09:10 AM, said:

I started Limited with the CZ 75 TS, great gun right out of the box. The only real disadvantage I can think of is that you must load ammo to factory length and I found that you cannot use anything other than jacketed bullets.

I'm thinking of shooting Production with a CZ. I'm curious - why only jacketed? Is this a condition that exists with all of the various CZ models, or just the Tactical Sport? I was planning on an SP-01 Shadow.

Lead, moly or jacket are fine in the SP-01. Sometimes you have to tinker to get a good load with lead or moly 147's but there aren't any other issues.

[Jeff Matzka]

SLM, on Sep 1 2009, 09:48 AM, said:

Jeff Matzka, on Sep 1 2009, 09:11 AM, said:

CocoBolo, on Aug 19 2009, 09:10 AM, said:

I started Limited with the CZ 75 TS, great gun right out of the box. The only real disadvantage I can think of is that you must load ammo to factory length and I found that you cannot use anything other than jacketed bullets.

I'm thinking of shooting Production with a CZ. I'm curious - why only jacketed? Is this a condition that exists with all of the various CZ models, or just the Tactical Sport? I was planning on an SP-01 Shadow.

Lead, moly or jacket are fine in the SP-01. Sometimes you have to tinker to get a good load with lead or moly 147's but there aren't any other issues.

Thanks - that's good to hear. I can afford lead a bit easier than jacketed, if you know what I mean.

[EricBudd]

Jeff Matzka, on Sep 1 2009, 07:11 AM, said:

CocoBolo, on Aug 19 2009, 09:10 AM, said:

I started Limited with the CZ 75 TS, great gun right out of the box. The only real disadvantage I can think of is that you must load ammo to factory length and I found that you cannot use anything other than jacketed bullets.

I'm thinking of shooting Production with a CZ. I'm curious - why only jacketed? Is this a condition that exists with all of the various CZ models, or just the Tactical Sport? I was planning on an SP-01 Shadow.

I've been running 180 molys out of my TS without a problem. I have not had any issues other then smoke when I tried titegroup.

[JimmyZip]

Been shooting a TS all this year with 180s also. I do clean it every 500 rounds anyway, but it cleans easy, and I'm good to go.
YMMV

JZ

[ejevans45]

I'm trying to make the same decision right now as well. I have a shadow that I absolutely love and am leaning to the TS. The only reason I am still unsure is that I like the fact that the EAA Elite Limited has the larger mag well and adjustable sights. I know these are extras that I can have added to the CZ TS but that takes funds away from more mags and gear. On the other hand the TS has a longer barrel and sight radius which is not an extra you can add to the EAA.
Decisions, decisions.

[mpolans]

ejevans45, on Nov 7 2009, 01:19 PM, said:

I'm trying to make the same decision right now as well. I have a shadow that I absolutely love and am leaning to the TS. The only reason I am still unsure is that I like the fact that the EAA Elite Limited has the larger mag well and adjustable sights. I know these are extras that I can have added to the CZ TS but that takes funds away from more mags and gear. On the other hand the TS has a longer barrel and sight radius which is not an extra you can add to the EAA.
Decisions, decisions.

Hmm . . . the TS has a longer sight radius, a heavier front end (which you can always lighten later), an awesome trigger pull out of the box, a smaller diameter grip, better factory/importer support, and lower price. Heck, you might even be able to pick up a larger magwell and adj. sights for not much more than the difference in price.

I know which one I'd pick.

Heck, if I didn't already have a tricked out STI and a Glock 35, I would buy one.

This post has been edited by mpolans: 07 November 2009 - 09:21 PM

[Silver_Surfer]

Maks_H, on Aug 19 2009, 12:16 AM, said:

I would say go with Witness with Henning mags. CZ TS is a great gun, but parts like to brake a lot. My shooting teammate cracked two barrels in a year and a half. Last one cracked at 9k.

Can you tell me what model? Caliber? Where on the barrel did it crack?
Thanks

[Walküre]

Silver_Surfer, on Nov 8 2009, 11:25 PM, said:

Maks_H, on Aug 19 2009, 12:16 AM, said:

I would say go with Witness with Henning mags. CZ TS is a great gun, but parts like to brake a lot. My shooting teammate cracked two barrels in a year and a half. Last one cracked at 9k.

Can you tell me what model? Caliber? Where on the barrel did it crack?
Thanks

The most common part to break on a TS is the slide stop - but really, this is a fairly common failure point on most guns at high round counts. The TS comes with spares so you have no excuse at a match.

TS .40S&W barrels do not have a very long life. I have read that the expected lifespan is only about 60k rounds. IIRC, they tend to start cracking on the bottom, near the external equivalent position of the throat.

CZs are notorious for iffy springs out-of-the-box, but are otherwise generally very robust guns.


FWIW, the only problem with my TS so far is that it refuses to feed sharper-TC-profile bullets. More RN/FP-style bullets feed 100%. I haven't had it long, but for comparison, a fellow local USPSA shooter picked up an older small-frame Tanfoglio more recently than I got the TS and has encountered far more problems already. Albeit, it is an older gun and has seen far more lifetime use (as he bought it used this fall, while I bought a new TS from the custom shop just this summer).

[Neomet]

I shoot a Angusized TS and it is as reliable as an anvil. Weighs about the same, but that is a different subject. Actually it is a heavy pistol. Not sure how it weighs out against the Tanfo. Some like that, others don't. I'm going to have Bobby put mine on a serious diet, specifically at the nose of the gun to see how I like that.

[Sean Gaines]

Walküre, on Nov 9 2009, 09:27 PM, said:

Silver_Surfer, on Nov 8 2009, 11:25 PM, said:

Maks_H, on Aug 19 2009, 12:16 AM, said:

I would say go with Witness with Henning mags. CZ TS is a great gun, but parts like to brake a lot. My shooting teammate cracked two barrels in a year and a half. Last one cracked at 9k.

Can you tell me what model? Caliber? Where on the barrel did it crack?
Thanks

The most common part to break on a TS is the slide stop - but really, this is a fairly common failure point on most guns at high round counts. The TS comes with spares so you have no excuse at a match.

TS .40S&W barrels do not have a very long life. I have read that the expected lifespan is only about 60k rounds. IIRC, they tend to start cracking on the bottom, near the external equivalent position of the throat.

CZs are notorious for iffy springs out-of-the-box, but are otherwise generally very robust guns.


FWIW, the only problem with my TS so far is that it refuses to feed sharper-TC-profile bullets. More RN/FP-style bullets feed 100%. I haven't had it long, but for comparison, a fellow local USPSA shooter picked up an older small-frame Tanfoglio more recently than I got the TS and has encountered far more problems already. Albeit, it is an older gun and has seen far more lifetime use (as he bought it used this fall, while I bought a new TS from the custom shop just this summer).

FWIW Briley will be making SP01 barrels by december, they already have cz75 barrels in stock, claudio can do all the gunsmithing work for you, he has been playing with these guns since the 80's

[Walküre]

Neomet, on Nov 9 2009, 10:41 PM, said:

I shoot a Angusized TS and it is as reliable as an anvil. Weighs about the same, but that is a different subject. Actually it is a heavy pistol. Not sure how it weighs out against the Tanfo. Some like that, others don't. I'm going to have Bobby put mine on a serious diet, specifically at the nose of the gun to see how I like that.

I did an informal quick weighing of my TS shortly after I got it, and it was around the 3# mark with an empty mag. It really is a beast of a gun.

[belus]

Neomet, on Nov 9 2009, 08:41 PM, said:

I shoot a Angusized TS and it is as reliable as an anvil. Weighs about the same, but that is a different subject. Actually it is a heavy pistol. Not sure how it weighs out against the Tanfo. Some like that, others don't. I'm going to have Bobby put mine on a serious diet, specifically at the nose of the gun to see how I like that.

Do you have his grip reduction?

Before I ever shot a match I stopped by the custom shop to get new sights, a holster, and a belt. While I was there I held a used CTS they were selling and was amazed at how comfortable the gun was. In comparison to a wide-body 1911 it felt like a sculpture.
http://www.ghosthols...ry/gallery.html

[Neomet]

I got mine pre CTS but after seeing the CTS Mr. Dremel had a go at the grip and I have to say the difference in just taking off the checkering and v-e-r-y carefully undercutting the beavertail made a huge difference. Love it.

[photog]

I have a Limited. I have shot the TS. Both in 40.

My Limited feels 'looser' whatever that means. both are mechanically accurate enough for this game. The Limited is bigger feeling in the hand. The TS has a better trigger out of the box, but my Limited now has as good (or better) of a feel, after some $0 mods. The safety on the Limited is WAY better than the TS; you can use the safety as a thumb rest and activate it without changing grip or even moving your thumb. I think the Limited shoots softer. The Limited is better if you reload and tinker with stuff. The TS is maybe better if you just buy ammo and don't want to do anything else. The Limited can be worked into an open gun with its scope mount holes and available comped barrel.

After shooting both, I will stay with my Limited. Mostly because of the fit int he hand and the safety. Balance feels better to me on the Limited too.

[ManNamedJed]

I got a TS so I could move into Limited. I thought that, like my SP01, I'd pull it out of the box and be ready to shoot. That has not been the case. Its gone back to CZ once to fix a non-resetting trigger. The mag extensions caused all sorts of jams. The Angus magwell squeezes the frame so mags don't drop free. One factory mag hasn't fed reliably since day 1.

I'm not bad mouthing the gun. Now that I've got the bugs worked out I really like it. Its just that I thought by getting it, I'd avoid alot of the 1911 fiddling and tuning.

[Walküre]

ManNamedJed, on Dec 1 2009, 03:58 PM, said:

The Angus magwell squeezes the frame so mags don't drop free. One factory mag hasn't fed reliably since day 1.

Actually, it doesn't really squeeze the mags - it's that the basepads (and extensions) are more or less *exactly* the same dimension as the magwell, leading to possible sticking. And with the extensions, if the baseplates get bent, the back edge can drag on the magwell as well.

I've filed down the rear portion of the top edges on my extensions, and always check that the baseplates are square when re-assembling the mags. With the slight mod and attention during maintenance, they have zero issues with any dragging or catching.

[ManNamedJed]

Walküre, on Dec 1 2009, 05:32 PM, said:

ManNamedJed, on Dec 1 2009, 03:58 PM, said:

The Angus magwell squeezes the frame so mags don't drop free. One factory mag hasn't fed reliably since day 1.

Actually, it doesn't really squeeze the mags - it's that the basepads (and extensions) are more or less *exactly* the same dimension as the magwell, leading to possible sticking. And with the extensions, if the baseplates get bent, the back edge can drag on the magwell as well.

I've filed down the rear portion of the top edges on my extensions, and always check that the baseplates are square when re-assembling the mags. With the slight mod and attention during maintenance, they have zero issues with any dragging or catching.

Actually it DOES squeeze the frame, causing the mags to drag. I am aware of the issue with the extensions (last ones I got were different and didn't have the problem BTW). This was confirmed by CZ when I sent it in to have the trigger reset issue fixed . A mag would drop half way out and hang up.

[Walküre]

ManNamedJed, on Dec 2 2009, 06:00 PM, said:

Actually it DOES squeeze the frame, causing the mags to drag. I am aware of the issue with the extensions (last ones I got were different and didn't have the problem BTW). This was confirmed by CZ when I sent it in to have the trigger reset issue fixed . A mag would drop half way out and hang up.

More correctly, yours may squeeze the frame. Mine isn't supplying any extra tension anywhere whatsoever. It's held on, but that's about it. I've been thinking about looking into tighting up the fit a bit, actually.

Who did the work on your TS?