[CHA-LEE]

THIS IS NOT A DEBATE ON WHICH IS BETTER, IDPA VS USPSA. That has already been beat to death 90890824234098234 times. With that out of the way, here it is…..

I have observed a strange new shooter discrepancy at the local matches between IDPA and USPSA events. Locally we have 9 – 10 USPSA matches a month at various different clubs across the front range of Colorado. We also have 1 IDPA match per month. Every IDPA match there seems to be a BOAT LOAD (20+) of new shooters in attendance every match. The USPSA matches have a very small amount of new shooters which are usually only 3 – 4 at the most with most of the matches having no new shooters. Interestingly enough, even though the IDPA matches pull in a huge amount of new shooters very few of these new shooters become regular attendees of the match. Most come and shoot that first time and never come back again. Where as the retention rate for the USPSA new shooters seems to be a lot better.

With all of this known, here are my questions….

1 – How on earth does a single IDPA match pull in so many new shooters? Is it different advertising? Different shooting demographic (Tactical verses Competition)?

2 – Why can’t the numerous USPSA matches pull in as many new shooters? Too competition based style of shooting? New shooters feel like they need a huge investment in equipment to be competitive? Too humbling of an experience when they first attend a USPSA match?

I am trying to understand why IDPA matches always have an endless stream of new shooters where as USPSA matches do not. But then the retention rate is flip flopped the other direction. Any ideas on why these two styles of shooting are polar opposites when it comes to bringing in new shooters and retaining them?

[Bigpops]

CHA-LEE,

My wife and I are fairly new to the IDPA and USPSA sports as we have just hit the one year mark. In our case, the local IDPA seemed a little easier to grasp the range commands and safety rules. In our mind it was more "shoot this, move here, reload now" etc. As a new person that was very helpful and allowed us to gain valuable experience and become more comfortable with ourselves, our shooting, and of course our equipment.

Then we were introduced to this sick, insane, drug....called USPSA!

[Bigpops]

To add...my first USPSA event was Fredericksburg Va. last year. Shooters such as TJ, Tino, Warren, Fransisco, and many other great shooters attend the matches there on a regular basis. As a new guy I was very nervous and felt a little overwhelmed. Had my first match been there, as a USPSA event...well not so sure if I would have made the leap as soon.

Hope that helps a little. A perspective from a new guy.

This post has been edited by Bigpops: 10 August 2009 - 03:51 PM

[The_Vigilante]

IDPA is more structured than USPSA and the "new" shooters know what to expect on each stage vs USPSA. I started with an IPSC 101 starter class but didn't stay there very long-they didn't have much equipment. Went to IDPA and after I got comfortable with the commands and safety rules started shooting USPSA. I like them both!!! Also would add that the IDPA matches in my area are a little more friendlier than the USPSA matches if you get my drift. The shooters aren't intimidated as they might be at a USPSA match where competition is king!!!

This post has been edited by The_Vigilante: 10 August 2009 - 03:59 PM

[JFlowers]

In the Charlotte, NC area we have so many new shooters showing up at the local USPSA matches that some matches are pushed to manage the number of shooters. Can't say about the IDPA matches, but many of the new shooters are coming into USPSA from IDPA.

[CHA-LEE]

Bigpops> That makes a lot of sense and I never thought about that aspect. I can totally see how the free style "Figure it out yourself" COF's that exist at most USPSA matches would be pretty confusing and or intimidating for a new shooter. But that answer is an enigma in its self. For them to experience how a match is run they need to attend first right? If you take a step back in the process from being at the match, how does the "Hay you, come to this IDPA match" happen so much better than a USPSA match? I know that the regular IDPA shooters are mostly older guys where as the USPSA matches are attended by mostly younger guys. Do you think the age difference of the regular attendees could be a difference in brining in more or less new shooters? Such as the older IDPA guys feeling more comfortable about asking complete strangers to come out and shoot a match?

I think that a main attraction for new shooters to IDPA is that you are encouraged to use your normal every day carry pistol. So you don't really have to "Gear Up" to attend a match. Show up, and shoot with what you have is the normal situation there. Where as a USPSA style match I can see how new shooters would feel like they need to buy a bunch of competition equipment to even compete. But even this does not answer the retention of new shooters aspect.

[Sarge]

CHA-LEE, on Aug 10 2009, 06:35 PM, said:

THIS IS NOT A DEBATE ON WHICH IS BETTER, IDPA VS USPSA. That has already been beat to death 90890824234098234 times. With that out of the way, here it is…..

I have observed a strange new shooter discrepancy at the local matches between IDPA and USPSA events. Locally we have 9 – 10 USPSA matches a month at various different clubs across the front range of Colorado. We also have 1 IDPA match per month. Every IDPA match there seems to be a BOAT LOAD (20+) of new shooters in attendance every match. The USPSA matches have a very small amount of new shooters which are usually only 3 – 4 at the most with most of the matches having no new shooters. Interestingly enough, even though the IDPA matches pull in a huge amount of new shooters very few of these new shooters become regular attendees of the match. Most come and shoot that first time and never come back again. Where as the retention rate for the USPSA new shooters seems to be a lot better.

With all of this known, here are my questions….

1 – How on earth does a single IDPA match pull in so many new shooters? Is it different advertising? Different shooting demographic (Tactical verses Competition)?

I would say tactical preference and the thought of shooting what you own.

2 – Why can’t the numerous USPSA matches pull in as many new shooters? Too competition based style of shooting? New shooters feel like they need a huge investment in equipment to be competitive? Too humbling of an experience when they first attend a USPSA match?

I was willing to spend to join the sport (USPSA) I knew that no matter what there was more specialization involved than in IDPA

I am trying to understand why IDPA matches always have an endless stream of new shooters where as USPSA matches do not. But then the retention rate is flip flopped the other direction. Any ideas on why these two styles of shooting are polar opposites when it comes to bringing in new shooters and retaining them?

I think a lot of new gun owners under the current climate want CCW type shooting hence IDPA wins out then they see how much ammo gets burned up at a match and then back out.

This post has been edited by sandman: 10 August 2009 - 04:01 PM

[CHA-LEE]

I am also talking about totally new shooters here. Not so much new to shooting, but new to match shooting. I have also seen a lot of guys start in IDPA and transition over to USPSA because they like it better. But by that time, they are technically not "New Shooters".

[Sarge]

Slight drift. I have personally never attended an IDPA match. (Not much shot around here) But I have seen IDPA shooters come by and shoot at our USPSA match on occasion. Man what a different game! Hiding to reload and all that stuff! I am not making fun of IDPA or the shooters but it is almost comical to watch them shoot USPSA because of the totally different mindset.

[RobMoore]

There is a dogma going around that IDPA is somehow more beginner friendly, and that USPSA takes a "ton of equipment and an expensive gun" to compete it. Obviously this argument falls flat with the addition of the production and single stack classes, but facts have never been a cure for ignorance.

IDPA also has the "defensive training" draw, bringing in shooters who don't necessarily care about competing, but want to get better with their personal defense gun, and believe IDPA more suited to that purpose.

[Bigpops]

CHA-LEE, on Aug 10 2009, 06:59 PM, said:

Bigpops> That makes a lot of sense and I never thought about that aspect. I can totally see how the free style "Figure it out yourself" COF's that exist at most USPSA matches would be pretty confusing and or intimidating for a new shooter. But that answer is an enigma in its self. For them to experience how a match is run they need to attend first right? If you take a step back in the process from being at the match, how does the "Hay you, come to this IDPA match" happen so much better than a USPSA match? I know that the regular IDPA shooters are mostly older guys where as the USPSA matches are attended by mostly younger guys. Do you think the age difference of the regular attendees could be a difference in brining in more or less new shooters? Such as the older IDPA guys feeling more comfortable about asking complete strangers to come out and shoot a match?

I think that a main attraction for new shooters to IDPA is that you are encouraged to use your normal every day carry pistol. So you don't really have to "Gear Up" to attend a match. Show up, and shoot with what you have is the normal situation there. Where as a USPSA style match I can see how new shooters would feel like they need to buy a bunch of competition equipment to even compete. But even this does not answer the retention of new shooters aspect.

The IDPA was local for me. Plus I am retired military. Most of the folks at our local IDPA are military, retired, law enforcement or something of that nature. To add, I also went by to "take a look" before I actually stepped up to the plate.

Age? Thats a funny question. You would think, especially in our area with large military base, that we would draw a younger crowd. I would have to guess that the average "new" shooter is around my age. Ummm, that would be a fit... young 45! Even at the USPSA events we attend in VA, PA, and in MD, the young shooters tend to be kids of active shooters. Again, I would have to guess most of the new people are around age 40.

Just speaking from what I have heard through various conversations with IDPA folks, there is a belief that you must spend your life savings on equipment to shoot USPSA. Having said that, I feel some really thought that while others keep it as an excuse to not "leave the farm" so to speak.

Not to ruffle any feathers here but I think most (not all) IDPA shooters have a belief, or vision, of USPSA that is innacurrate. I am only speaking from my area now so don't send me hate mail folks) As we, my friends and I, expose them to USPSA they see an entire new light. I am not saying one is better than the other, I am saying they tend to see a different view and all have really enjoyed it.

Basically both IDPA and USPSA are cool in their own right. I just think USPSA can be a little intimidating to a new shooter. Lets face it....we grew up being told "don't run with guns", "don't shoot that fast", etc. etc. To see your first real USPSA match, let alone shoot it, your like HOLY COW..did you see that! (ok, maybe not after watching me)

[Joe4d]

The basic perception is USPSA takes an extremely expensive race gun and gear to be competitive, IDPA doesnt. doesnt matter if it is true or not that is the perception among the general non competing shooters.

[CHA-LEE]

I can see how the impression of "You must have a ton of expensive competition gear to shoot USPSA matches" gets around. There will always be the Ford verses Chevy argument between IDPA and USPSA. But that isn't the intent of this thread.

I think that most of the new shooters choose IDPA over USPSA as their first match is due to a couple of things. First its more of a "run what you brug" kind of match. Secondly pretty much all of the COF's spoon feed the shooting order of targets and shooting positions. Then lastly, as stupid as it may sound, I think the more limited round count of an IDPA match is also very appealing to a new shooter. If you tell a guy that normally shoots 100 rounds a month plinking that he is going to need to bring 200 rounds to a single USPSA match just to be safe, you can see them cringe at the cost or availability of ammo needed for a single match. Where as most IDPA matches usually use less than 75 rounds and a lot of times less that that.

Now lets talk about retention of the new shooters. Why does IDPA bleed off soo many of their new shooters? Where as USPSA usually has a better track record of keeping new shooters? Is it that IDPA is a lot easier for new shooters to try and be done with it verses USPSA? Or is it that there is some magical formula that attracts competitive people to USPSA more so than IDPA? Usually people that are competitive in other things tend to stick with USPSA.

[Leozinho]

RobMoore, on Aug 10 2009, 04:25 PM, said:

There is a dogma going around that IDPA is somehow more beginner friendly, and that USPSA takes a "ton of equipment and an expensive gun" to compete it. Obviously this argument falls flat with the addition of the production and single stack classes, but facts have never been a cure for ignorance.

I think you are right, Rob. I certainly had the impression that IDPA was beginner friendly and "IPSC" was for "race guns." I suppose I got that idea from the gun rags and maybe some internet chatter.

IDPA probably is more beginner friendly, with low round count stages and less-demanding stages. I started in IDPA, but after shooting a 36-round field course at my first USPSA match, I was hooked and haven't shot an IDPA match since.

RobMoore, on Aug 10 2009, 04:25 PM, said:

IDPA also has the "defensive training" draw, bringing in shooters who don't necessarily care about competing, but want to get better with their personal defense gun, and believe IDPA more suited to that purpose.

You're right, again. The defensive angle is a big draw to the guys I used to shoot with.

I'm not up on the history and timeline of USPSA's various divisions but I wonder if IDPA would have taken off like it did had USPSA had a single stack and production from the beginning.

[fourtrax]

Never shot IDPA, but I do shoot with a lot of people who use to shoot IDPA. I think that USPSA should really push the production and single stack divisions more. As USPSA shooters, we should push those divisions more, regardless of what we shoot. I can see the argument that the perception of USPSA being expensive drives people, initially, to IDPA. As an Open shooter, I am very careful when introducing new shooters. I explain all divisions and how they are beneficial in allowing someone to compete without a cash outlay for anything fancy.

[maineshootah]

CHA-LEE, on Aug 10 2009, 06:35 PM, said:

With all of this known, here are my questions….

1 – How on earth does a single IDPA match pull in so many new shooters? Is it different advertising? Different shooting demographic (Tactical verses Competition)?

It's called gear.
New shooters see a pistol, strong side holster and 3 mags and easy to get.
Plus they see IDPA as not needing "a lot of gear". (Their quote not mine.. I already asked this at my local club).
TV has something to do with it as well, as Best Defense and others have a strong focus on the "personal protection" side of shooting.
I think the high speed low drag open glitz DOES play into it even though we explain that they will not be scored against or with them.

We have pulled several "tactical" shooters into USPSA matches. They often comment on "all the gear" they need.
(I guess having 8-10 mags isn't something that most folks bring to the range...)

It is all good. Get 'em shooting.

[chefcs5]

I guess I am the opposite I see IDPA as themore daunting sport than uspsa because of all the rules. It was much easier for me to become comfy with the rulesand range commands of uspsa than it was/is idpa I am an RO for uspsa and still have trouble with all the rules of IDPA.. Granted this is my 1 year this month of idpa/uspsa shooting so I am also fairlynew to the sport. To me the concealed holster and gear was harder to find than the stuff for idpa. and for a bigger guy like me Istill have a lot of issues with the idpa rules and cover and preception of cover. I do enjoy both though. I never thought i needed a ton of quipment for uspsa I got toknow an experinced shooter and asked what I really needed. he helped me find a holster some mag puches and 2 extra mags as I only had 2. As the tactical VS. Race I see the race asbeing more friendly, I feel liek the more fit y0ounger guys deffinetly do better at Idpa than I do while in uspsa I can keep up with most of them. So thats how I got started and here I am today.

[MemphisMechanic]

Hopefully my answer will count for something, as I'm (almost) one of the new shooters you described.

I'm 29. Started shooting competitively 2 years ago, when I attended my first indoor IDPA match.

I had been carrying a gun since I was 21, and realized I still wasn't confident in my ability to wield it effectively under stress. I looked at both comps, and chose IDPA first for the same reason most probably do:

Most shooters own a gun with 2-3 mags. Needing 4-6 for production alone is an issue. Not to mention that most have ZERO mag carriers.
IDPA appears simpler. Mainly because nearly everyone shoots every COF the same way
Round count is lower
NO ONE has an Open gun. While ESP pistols can closely resemble a Limited gun, the vest and traditional holster 'hide' the race image. Mag location/count/capacity helps dispel the 'race' image as well. When you go to an IDPA match, the Glock and 1911 are 80% or more of the field. They look like practical every-day-carry guns to untrained shooters. Your average USPSA match has at most 1/3 of the shooters with Production gear. The rest of the shooters have odd-looking things no one would carry.

I can't really emphasize how most people interested in learning to really utilize their defensive gun view Open guns (and the holster and mag carriers) as totally irrelevant to their interests. Kinda like a 16 year-old learning to drive would view a full-blown top-fuel dragster. Neat, but totally impractical.

You have to suck them in over time, as the 'gaming fever' grows within them. Out of all the new shooters I've seen go through our ranks at the local IDPA matches (I pretty much run our Tuesday indoor league now) ... very few of them have much interest in shooting outdoors, much less in trying out the "sport only" game that is USPSA. The abilities learned in USPSA translate very well to real-life defensive shooting skill.. But all they probably see are the 'ridiculous' gear on your belt, the space gun, and the day-glow uniforms on shooters running around shooting at those bubble-gum intensive stages.

95% of the people who shoot an IDPA match are baffled when they watch one of us game the hell out of something to win the stage. They're there to learn defensive skills and train with their gun. It's a curiosity to many of them that most of the regulars treat IDPA like a sport, rather than a chance to do some 'training' without the high-dollar price tag of a defensive shooting school. Getting them to stop in the middle of an opening an engage four targets without being anywhere near cover might just induce a seizure in this type of person.

I decided to make Master in IDPA, then transition over to Production. It's been incredibly fun, but I still shoot 6 IPDA matches for every USPSA match I attend. I really like both sports pretty much equally. IDPA because I'm pretty good at it, USPSA because it shows me how much I still have to learn.

This post has been edited by MemphisMechanic: 10 August 2009 - 07:39 PM

[VegasOPM]

As others have said, IDPA is less equipment intensive and more structured for the CoF. Locally, the IDPA matches are a little cheaper too.

[fomeister]

One aspect not discussed thus far is the personality types common to both sports. New shooters who actually make it to USPSA matches and come back are aggressive, competitive, A-types, and are really interested in doing this, and doing it better and faster. The IDPA matches tend to have the quieter, more reserved, almost shy shooters who want to move a little slower toward the confidence they seek in pistol craft. Now there are exceptions to both sports, but after many years of shooting both, I really see it this way. When we started shooting a monthly steel match at our club, we saw something I almost couldn't believe: USPSA shooters, IDPA shooters, and new shooters from all different backgrounds came out and shot everything from antique .22s to full custom open race guns. No one seems to be overwhelmed, and no one seems to discuss which way is more realistic, and no one gets called gamer. Just my observations.

[MemphisMechanic]

Also, about 75% or more of my new shooters either came from seeing us shoot at the local indoor range, while taking their TN handgun permit class... It looks like people practicing with carry guns, in defensive situations, and they get kinda interested in that.

[Neomet]

When I started not so long ago I didn't know the difference between the COFs, the different divisions, or for that matter how many magazines I would even need. I showed up at an IDPA match largely because I was told that it was "more like what you would do on the street" as opposed to USPSA which was "pistol competition". As someone not entirely confident yet in my shooting skills and not knowing anything at all about either sport I went for IDPA first as it seemed most like what I already (thought) I knew. After a very short time I realized my personal choice is USPSA but I did go to IDPA first.

My suggestion for clubs to recruit new shooters is to have loaner holsters (right and left hand please) mags and mag pouches for your primary shooting platforms. Glock, XD, M&P and 1911. Put ads up at the local gun stores/ranges and advertise that shooters can get a chance to have fun trying out this sport with the loaner stuff if needed. Have someone who is a great ambassador for the sport mentor them through the match and make sure you squad them with other beginners or C - D shooters. While it might be cool to see a GM Open shooter burn a stage down if everyone the newbie is shooting with is too much better than they are the newbie won't feel like he belongs just because of the huge difference in skill sets. Imagine how you would feel if you attempted to learn to play piano when everyone in the class had already composed their own piano sonata.

Just my .02

[nashvillebill]

My first impressions of each were that IDPA was more "normal" shooting, and USPSA was more "sporty". Of course, after a few years of shooting both I have come to realize that both are very competitive and very few of us are normal. So I can see IDPA appealing more to the uninitiated who quickly discover it is more competitive than they bargained for. USPSA at first glance is bold and gets more exciting as you progress, so people that this appeals to tend to hang around.

[Bigpops]

fomeister, on Aug 10 2009, 10:40 PM, said:

One aspect not discussed thus far is the personality types common to both sports. New shooters who actually make it to USPSA matches and come back are aggressive, competitive, A-types, and are really interested in doing this, and doing it better and faster. The IDPA matches tend to have the quieter, more reserved, almost shy shooters who want to move a little slower toward the confidence they seek in pistol craft. Now there are exceptions to both sports, but after many years of shooting both, I really see it this way. When we started shooting a monthly steel match at our club, we saw something I almost couldn't believe: USPSA shooters, IDPA shooters, and new shooters from all different backgrounds came out and shot everything from antique .22s to full custom open race guns. No one seems to be overwhelmed, and no one seems to discuss which way is more realistic, and no one gets called gamer. Just my observations.

Good point!

[Graham Smith]

Joe4d, on Aug 10 2009, 07:50 PM, said:

The basic perception is USPSA takes an extremely expensive race gun and gear to be competitive, IDPA doesnt. doesnt matter if it is true or not that is the perception among the general non competing shooters.

When I first started looking into actually shooting in a sport, this is precisely what I thought and is why I fully intended to shoot IDPA. The ONLY thing that got me to even go to a USPSA match was the fact that there were about 6 USPSA matches in my area (two within a 30 min drive) and only 1 IDPA match (about a 70 min drive).

I think that if you let the same group of new shooters go to a USPSA and an IDPA match there is an intimidation factor in USPSA that is enough to sway many of them in favor of IDPA. There is an old saying, "Perception is reality". And the perception that most people have of USPSA is that you cannot compete without spending a lot of money. And truth be told, that's not a completely unfair assessment.

There is also the issue of stage design. I've been shooting USPSA for about 15 months now and I can tell you for a fact that I cringe when I look at the complexity of some of the stages I've seen. The stages are set up by experienced shooters who try and make things challenging. But for a novice, they can also be rather scary. A couple weeks ago we had an IDPA shooter come to a USPSA match. He did OK, but only had a leather IWB holster and two mag holders - more than adequate for an IDPA match but a real disadvantage on a 32 round stage with a 4 mag minimum.

None of this makes IDPA better or worse than USPSA - just different. And it's likely the biggest and most obvious differences that may well account for the turnout you are seeing.