[Graham Smith]

This is starting to really bug me - I have had 3 squibs this year shooting .40 and I don't know why. I use a Dillion 550B and am very slow and deliberate (actually I'm anal) when I reload. There is a small light that shines right down into the shell in the powder station and I stand while reloading and check every case that goes through there.

Sunday, I took all my loaded rounds and weighed them. Any that were less than 2 gr below my average weight were set aside and later pulled and the powder weighed and found to have no more than a 0.15 gr variation from my load.

I then sat and tried to figure out what could have happened and came to the conclusion that it was nearly impossible to fail to charge a case. The case is charged on the down stroke at the same time as three other things are happening. If an empty case got past, it means that either no powder was dispensed or it was rotated through without the handle being pulled - which would also mean another case didn't get sized and decapped, a bullet did not get seated in second case and a third case did not get crimped.

To have had three squibs, means that on three separate occasions I just happened to not check the powder at the precise time when I also had a problem with the powder dispenser or some other bizarre combination of things happened - and, I know that I've never caught a case where powder was not dispensed so this makes the whole thing some kind of perfect storm.

Now, I'll be the first to admit that I'm not perfect - I make my share of mistakes. But I'm having a hell of a time trying to figure out how this could have happened 3 times given the number of things that would have to go wrong at the same time. Which makes me wonder if it's possible that something else could be happening.

So, here is the question (finally): Other than not enough powder, what can happen to cause a squib?

Glock 35, 4.5 gr N320, MG 180 CMJ, once fired brass, Win SP primers

Primer problem?
Bullet too fat?
Moon in the wrong phase?

[Bigpops]

Just to be sure I understand...your three squibs contained no powder or low powder?

[ChuckS]

IF the wing nut on the fail safe rod is loose, it is possible for the powder bar to hang up some and not pick up a full charge for the next round.

Later,
Chuck

[Nik Habicht]

FWIW, the one thing I watch when I'm reloading is the powder charge bar moving in the measure --- that's essential for my peace of mind. I also tend to run a full powder hopper and top off every 2-300 rounds....

[Graham Smith]

Bigpops, on Aug 10 2009, 09:52 AM, said:

Just to be sure I understand...your three squibs contained no powder or low powder?

I have no way of telling. Pull the trigger and it goes "pop" and the bullet is lodged part way down the barrel. How low does the powder have to get before something like this happens as opposed to the bullet coming all the way through and falling on the ground half way to the target?

ChuckS, on Aug 10 2009, 10:05 AM, said:

IF the wing nut on the fail safe rod is loose, it is possible for the powder bar to hang up some and not pick up a full charge for the next round.

That's one of the first things I checked. I ran about a hundred rounds through and watched each one to see if there were any cases where the rod didn't seem to be fully cycling.

This post has been edited by Graham Smith: 10 August 2009 - 07:34 AM

[BlackBuzzard]

From personal experience I can assure you that 0.9 grains of TG will still leave the bullet lodged in barrel.

But such low charges can rarely have the effect of detonation instead of burning.........not good.

BB

Graham Smith, on Aug 10 2009, 07:31 AM, said:

Bigpops, on Aug 10 2009, 09:52 AM, said:

Just to be sure I understand...your three squibs contained no powder or low powder?

I have no way of telling. Pull the trigger and it goes "pop" and the bullet is lodged part way down the barrel. How low does the powder have to get before something like this happens as opposed to the bullet coming all the way through and falling on the ground half way to the target?

ChuckS, on Aug 10 2009, 10:05 AM, said:

IF the wing nut on the fail safe rod is loose, it is possible for the powder bar to hang up some and not pick up a full charge for the next round.

That's one of the first things I checked. I ran about a hundred rounds through and watched each one to see if there were any cases where the rod didn't seem to be fully cycling.

[Jeff686]

How much volume is 4.5 gr on N320? Is it enough to substantially fill the case, or just a dusting on the bottom?

The reason I ask is that I've found it much easier to visually inspect the powder since I switched to 38 super. With 7.5gr of 7625, my cases are 3/4 full, and I can see and watch the charge variation from one shell to the next. When I was loading 45ACP with titegroup, I was lucky to be able to see the powder at the bottom of the case, and could not make a judgement on volume.

Too bad the 550b doesn't have a 5th station for a powder cop. Maybe you could seat and crimp in the last stage, and add a powder cop in position 3.

[Graham Smith]

Jeff686, on Aug 10 2009, 12:21 PM, said:

How much volume is 4.5 gr on N320? Is it enough to substantially fill the case, or just a dusting on the bottom?

It's just a tad under half full. I've tested minor PF charges down to about 3.0 without a problem so it would have to be a good deal less than that. If I were a masochist, I could just start reducing the charge until it fails, but...

I can see the powder in the case from about the 1/4 to 1/2 mark, so if it were below around 2.5 grains, it would be clear that there was a problem. This is one of the reasons why I keep wondering if there could be a problem other than powder level that could lead to an incomplete burn. For example, if there was a primer that didn't completely burn - one thing I've never done is inspect the primers before putting them into the press.

I lube the cases with Hornady One-Shot before starting. If there were a bit of the undried liquid, could it effect either the primer or the powder during loading?

If it sounds like I am grasping at straws - you're right. I'm about ready to pick up the phone and order a case of AAA ammo just for matches and keep my own reloads for practice until I can be sure I've eliminated this problem.

[Bigpops]

please forgive my ignorance but would just a primer, no powder, push a bullet enough to lodge into the barrel?

[Miranda]

got a friend who knows reloading?
another set of eyes on the press and process may find the cause.

it sounds like you are being careful.

miranda

[Hi-Power Jack]

Bigpops, on Aug 10 2009, 12:45 PM, said:

please forgive my ignorance but would just a primer, no powder, push a bullet enough to lodge into the barrel?

Really difficult to tell, but I believe it would.

I had three squibs two years ago when I
started reloading, and I think it was because
there was no powder (or very little powder)
in the case.

I think what happened (not positive) is I was
trying to switch from one powder to another, and
instead of just emptying the powder tube, I let
it "run out of powder" - bad mistake. I thought
it was a smart idea at the time, but looking back
at it, I wouldn't do that again.

Now, when I switch powders, I keep the tube filled
until I switch, and completely empty it, and then
completely refill it, and then start to reload again.

Lesson learned.

[Bigpops]

Knock on wood...I have yet to have a squib.

I know what your saying. When I reload I have gone as far as shutting the stereo off. If at anytime I get distracted or have a hiccup, if there is any doubt, I dump the filled case and move on. So far that method has kept me safe.

[Jman]

I've had a few over the years. All traceable to short strokes or a brain fade of some sorts. Slow the process down for a while and watch everything. I reconfigured my press height and location to allow me to see every charge in the case. It's a deliberate method that I stick to. ANY variance at all, I stop and re-inspect. Fully "bottoming out" on the lever strokes in both directions every time helps, a lot. Anyway, it's what I do and it works.

[danscrapbags]

Bigpops, on Aug 10 2009, 11:45 AM, said:

please forgive my ignorance but would just a primer, no powder, push a bullet enough to lodge into the barrel?

Yes it will, that is exactly how Brandon Lee was killed some years ago. They had a squib the day before his scene was shot and the next day they were using full power blanks, squib bullet in barrel + full power blanks = one dead actor.

[L-10_shooter]

How old is the powder? Just started a new bottle? Have you cronoed any to see how consistant they are? Thinking the powder might be contaminated, possibly.

[Bigpops]

danscrapbags, on Aug 10 2009, 01:08 PM, said:

Bigpops, on Aug 10 2009, 11:45 AM, said:

please forgive my ignorance but would just a primer, no powder, push a bullet enough to lodge into the barrel?

Yes it will, that is exactly how Brandon Lee was killed some years ago. They had a squib the day before his scene was shot and the next day they were using full power blanks, squib bullet in barrel + full power blanks = one dead actor.

I forgot about that whole story. Thanks.

I wasn't sure if squibs were produced by low powder, none at all, or both.

This post has been edited by Bigpops: 10 August 2009 - 10:15 AM

[NoSteel]

I know your not new to reloading as I myself am so this will probably seem to be a foolish question. When you are scaling your powder drops what do you do with the case afterword?? The reason I ask is because I caught myself once pulling the case off my 550 at the seating station pouring the powder onto the scale to do a quick check. ( I got in the habit of pouring the powder back into the case and placing back in the seating station and running it through) This time I place back in the station, placed a bullet and ran thru the rest of the process before realize what I had done. I know it is a dumb, simple thing to do and maybe not a concern at your level of experience, just a possibility noted.

[Graham Smith]

The powder is fairly new and I just ran a check with my old chrono two weeks ago and all 10 rounds were within 165 - 170 PF.

As to the question about measuring - I use a case that has been sized but not reprimed to measure loads when I'm first getting it adjusted. Once I start a new run, I check every 10 or so cases about 5 times - weighting the charge and pouring it back into the case. Then, if I happen to see a case that looks a tad low, I measure it. But that's a very good point because it is one place where the normal sequence is interrupted. I'll have to give that some thought and take extra care.

[charliez]

I got a few squibs when I first started reloading pistol loads on my 650, usually happens when I was starting a load and checking powder drop weights, etc. Sometimes I would advance the station and forget to reset (as the 650 has auto advance/index) resulting in one case primed but no powder.

I've since then used the RCBS Lock-out die, it checks for no powder, or double charge. If either occur, it will not let the press push upwards basically stopping the reloading progress. If I continue to forcefully push, the case under the Lock-out die will get crushed which is very noticeable. I haven't had a squib since.

I recently started reloading rifle loads, and found that the Lock-out die won't fit through a 223 case mouth so have gone back to the Dillon powder check die for that.

[BMartens]

I load with a SDB and really like progressive presses. One less thing to worry about, advancing the shell plate.

The only 100% safe method [prevention] is to look at each case before seating the bullet and visually check the powder level. You may have to change your set up a little so that you can see what is going on but, it is worth the trouble. And make sure you have a full down stroke.

If anything goes wrong, doesn't look right, doesn't feel right, clear the shell plate and start fresh after re-checking your set up. Never back up or start in the middle, good way to get a double load of powder. That's much more dramatic than a squib.

[Graham Smith]

BMartens, on Aug 11 2009, 09:27 PM, said:

The only 100% safe method [prevention] is to look at each case before seating the bullet and visually check the powder level. You may have to change your set up a little so that you can see what is going on but, it is worth the trouble. And make sure you have a full down stroke.

That's what I do and that's what really bugs me. It just seems that too many things would have to go wrong all at the same time for this to happen. At a minimum, it means that I would just happen to not check the very same time that the powder dispenser failed to dispense.

Maybe I'm over-analyzing this (ha - never do that do you Smith) and trying to rationalize that it was something other than my own stupid mistake. And if it were just one round, but to have had three this year - a year where I've had less practice time and have made a lot fewer rounds than I did last year with my two overly fussy Lee presses? I'd be a fool to wonder if there were not something else other than powder to worry about.

Tell you one thing, I'm going to have a good hard look at all my primers before putting them into the tubes. It's one thing I've never really bothered to check.

[mlmiller1]

GrahamSmith,
This is going to sound stupid & I haven't found anyone else to have had this problem but when I was using Hornday One-shot, I started having squibs. I was also loading v.v. but it was 3n37. It was like there was water in my powder or something. Let me suggest you do what I did. #1, take all your loaded rounds & lay them somewhere in the sun where they will get pretty warm for a couple of days. When I did this, it seemed to "dry" them out & no more squibs from the rounds I had loaded. #2, I ordered some dillon case lube. No more squibs at all. I took all the Hornady lubed rounds & relegated them to practice only. I have not heard of anyone else having this problem with Hornady & it is a good product for lubing but it didn't work well for me.

I was squirting the brass, then immediately loading them. After all the trouble, I read you should wait a while before loading but decided I didn't want to take anymore chances so I tossed that stuff.

I've never heard of anyone else having this problem but when the hornady went, so did my trouble. YMMV.

Good luck,
MLM

This post has been edited by mlmiller1: 12 August 2009 - 11:09 AM

[GrumpyOne]

Bigpops, on Aug 10 2009, 12:45 PM, said:

please forgive my ignorance but would just a primer, no powder, push a bullet enough to lodge into the barrel?

Yes, I've seen this happen.

[GrumpyOne]

Graham Smith, on Aug 10 2009, 01:49 PM, said:

The powder is fairly new and I just ran a check with my old chrono two weeks ago and all 10 rounds were within 165 - 170 PF.

As to the question about measuring - I use a case that has been sized but not reprimed to measure loads when I'm first getting it adjusted. Once I start a new run, I check every 10 or so cases about 5 times - weighting the charge and pouring it back into the case. Then, if I happen to see a case that looks a tad low, I measure it. But that's a very good point because it is one place where the normal sequence is interrupted. I'll have to give that some thought and take extra care.

I would bet money that this is where the problem lies. I have loaded 20,000+ rounds on my 550, no squibs. DO NOT START LOADING ANYTHING UNTIL YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY SURE YOUR POWDER DROP IS RIGHT. Once it is set right, don't pull a case off to measure it. I will bet that of all the cases you pulled off and measured the drop in, no case was more than .5 grains out from what all the others were. I did the same as you when I started loading and after many weighed charges, and finding out there wasn't any appreciable differences in weight, I let it go. Every once in a while I'll check it, every 1,000 rounds or so, and it still drops consistent charges. My guess is that some of the powder you are pouring back into the case is spilling, sweat dripping into it, etc. If you must pull the case to inspect every 10th case or so, weigh it, then pur it back into the powder measure, not the case. Then insert it back into the powder station empty, and refill it. It's not like your press will re-seat the bullet deeper in the next stage, nor will it crimp it tighter in the last stage. Once that sucker is set, LEAVE IT ALONE unless you are changing powders, loads, etc.

[speculatorking]

I got a squib yesterday at the indoor range. I was shooting my new steel gun. I was shooting my practice loads (didn't case gauge). One shot sounded like a thud so I knew something wasn't right. I don't
think the round had very much powder because the bullet didn't get very far down the barrel. I'm just glad I didn't pull the trigger again and ruin my beautiful Schuemann barrel. I wasn't so lucky about three years ago with my 45 Gold Cup.