[Seth]

After reading a lot of threads here about f/o vs irons I decided I wanted to try a traditional serrated black sight instead of a red fiber optic front. I'm running a Bomar rear and now a .115" thick black front. Installed on Thursday, laser sighted, and decided on a whim to shoot an IDPA match today. Not the hardest match ever, but interesting.

I have learned that I been getting the incomplete information from the fiber. I always found it hard to REALLY hard focus on it. I never did get the crispness of a sight picture Brian describes in his book.

But I did learn some things I'm trying to digest. I'm not tracking the sights hard enough. I believe the fiber allows me to 'cheat' my way back but I'm guessing my accuracy was suffering substantially. I now know what you guys mean when you're talking about SEEING the serrations in the front sight. Never seen that before.

I'm having trouble digesting the new information. I really liked shooting straight irons, but don't know what to do with it. Is there a performance gain to be made in 'backing up'?

[Paul Burtchell]

Hey Seth,

I am also "experimenting" with going back to a plain black front sight in lieu of a fiber optic. I noticed by your photo that you wear glasses?? The reason being, and I'm guessing and assuming, is that your vision like mine may not be what it was at one time?? If so you may want to try a narrower front sight than the .115. Something like a .090 or .100. A little more light on each side. Just a suggestion.

I noticed immediately after switching to the plain black front sight that my accuracy and times both improved. The front sight is much clearer and really "pops" on steel. I thought that the plain black sights may slow down my transitions but the timer proved otherwise.

And.... I no longer have to carry fiber optic cable, nail clippers and a cigar lighter in my range bag for when, not if, the fiber optic breaks.

This post has been edited by baerburtchell: 08 August 2009 - 06:22 PM

[Seth]

Paul,
I have a mild astigmatism that hasn't changed substantially in 10 years (I'm 35). My sight isn't bothersome.

My brain, on the other hand, doesn't want to give the front sight its due attention all the time. The awareness of serrations today was surprising. I had the opportunity post match to shoot 28 pieces of steel including 2 plate racks at about 35 yards. It was the first time I really had the change to concentrate on my accuracy at that distance outdoors in a while. Needless to say a plate rack at that distance is harder than I thought it might be.

I went from a .125 to a .115 and am quite comfortable with that change right now. I have tried skinny fronts in the past but suffered from an inability to make tight shots.

[Chris Keen]

The skinny front sights should make it easier to make tight shots, not harder. The more light you have on either side of the front sight will make it easier to line up.

I used to use a FO front sight when I shot Glocks, but when I bought my first STI Edge I just used the standard iron front sight for a while and I liked it. I did try to go back to FO and within one week, I yanked that sucker off of there, and went back to the iron sights.

Now, 3 years later I have a thinner (.090) iron sight with serrations, and I think it's the best thing ever!

[Paul Burtchell]

The combination of switching to a plain black front sight, monovision contact lenses and a pair of Rudy's with photochromatic red lenses is making it possible for me to shoot iron sights again. I thought "open" was going to be my only option.

Seth, maybe just give it a little more time.

This post has been edited by baerburtchell: 08 August 2009 - 06:44 PM

[imhntn]

I shot with a plain black a few weeks ago at an icore match and didn't notice it being easier. My eyes are definitely not what they used to be and I sure pick up the red on my fiber optics a lot faster so far. I am only about a year into the game though and am sure no expert....yet.

[Seth]

I'm DEFINITELY sticking with it. I like what I've seen, so to speak.

But I do feel like I have a pretty steep learning curve.

[Matt Cheely]

If it's the standard .110" rear notch, a .115" front is way too wide. Try a .095" width or open the rear to .125".

This post has been edited by Matt Cheely: 08 August 2009 - 07:52 PM

[Seth]

The rear is a .115"... but now you have me thinking about opening it... the front had to be custom made by EGW, since the sight cut was their proprietary .330 x .70 x 60*.

This post has been edited by Seth: 09 August 2009 - 05:16 AM

[ebg3]

What works for one person may be way off for another. Keep experimenting with your setup and you'll find what works for you. For me, a too narrow front sight sucks. I really like the front sight to be the same width as the rear notch on a typical 5" setup. If I have too much light on either side of the front sight, the tight shots are harder to make. Good luck.
Eddie

[MemphisMechanic]

I went from crappy Glock sights, to F/O (4 months) to irons (1 yearish).

I then decided to shoot a month with the F/O again. At the end of the month, I couldn't wait to go back to a black front sight.

I really like shooting black-on-black. I'm 29 with 20/15 vision when I have my contacts in, so that helps with the focusing.

This post has been edited by MemphisMechanic: 09 August 2009 - 06:45 PM

[bkeeler]

FWIW

I went back and forth for a while and now back to F/O. But I don't change the sight I will just blackout the fiber. I have stuck with the fiber for this season last season I had it blacked out.

Haven't really noticed much of a difference in times or accuracy. I did at first when I went back to black but I have the F/O in now and haven't wanted to or felt the need to go back to black. I think I may have learned how to use the F/O the correct way on tight or long shots.

BK

[benos]

Seth, on Aug 8 2009, 05:07 PM, said:

I'm having trouble digesting the new information. I really liked shooting straight irons, but don't know what to do with it. Is there a performance gain to be made in 'backing up'?

I wouldn't think of it as "backing up." Keep "opening up."

Seth, on Aug 8 2009, 05:07 PM, said:

After reading a lot of threads here about f/o vs irons I decided I wanted to try a traditional serrated black sight instead of a red fiber optic front. I'm running a Bomar rear and now a .115" thick black front. Installed on Thursday, laser sighted, and decided on a whim to shoot an IDPA match today. Not the hardest match ever, but interesting.

I have learned that I been getting the incomplete information from the fiber. I always found it hard to REALLY hard focus on it. I never did get the crispness of a sight picture Brian describes in his book.

But I did learn some things I'm trying to digest. I'm not tracking the sights hard enough. I believe the fiber allows me to 'cheat' my way back but I'm guessing my accuracy was suffering substantially. I now know what you guys mean when you're talking about SEEING the serrations in the front sight. Never seen that before.

I'm having trouble digesting the new information. I really liked shooting straight irons, but don't know what to do with it. Is there a performance gain to be made?

For me, yes. And exactly for the reasons you cited in paragraphs 2 and 3. Very well put. Keeping working with it and in the end you won't doubt.
be

[Seth]

Thanks Brian. I suffer from a distinct inability to master anything anymore. My life is complicated by itself, but I want to learn to shoot. Really shoot.

I am actually a lot less interested in shooting Open right now, just because I am so fascinated by what I saw Saturday. Might be just the ticket for opening my mind and teaching me to properly shoot.

[CHA-LEE]

I went from a FO front sight to a standard Iron one a couple months back because I had a hard time dealing with different lighting conditions using the FO front sight. When it would get darker, like indoor shooting, I would tend to line up the middle of the FO rod to the level plane of the rear sight and my hits would be high. Since switching to a standard iron sight I am able to shoot much more accurately and consistently than before. I am currently using a .120 rear and .90 front iron sight setup. This setup works great in all lighting conditions for me.

I might try a front and rear FO setup at some point though just to see if that works any different for me. But I know that only having a FO in the front seems unbalanced to me. Sounds funny, but it makes the front sight too prominent and takes away from being able to line it up in the rear notch properly.

[Seth]

Just adding a note...

I really enjoyed the exercise of have to FIND and ALIGN the sights I found last weekend.... I couldn't just rip a shot knowing it was close enough. I had to see the sight and make the shot to be sure. And for the record, I shot 6pts down for the whole match.

[benos]

Seth, on Aug 10 2009, 05:40 PM, said:

Just adding a note...

I really enjoyed the exercise of have to FIND and ALIGN the sights I found last weekend.... I couldn't just rip a shot knowing it was close enough. I had to see the sight and make the shot to be sure. And for the record, I shot 6pts down for the whole match.

Nice!

Yes, with the FO, it's really easy to start hammering the trigger when you see "color" on the target.
be

[Seth]

That's the truth. I'm actually seriously considering waiting to go open until I better master irons.

[Graham Smith]

It's very timely seeing this thread as I was about to pose the reverse question. I'm currently working with my eye doctor to find a prescription for bi-focal contacts that will work with my computer and with my gun. My Dr's and her husband both shoot for fun (not any sport) and she understands about the issues with sight picture - it's taking time but getting closer all the time to the right lens.

Anyway, I used to have a set of TruGlo sights on my Glock 19 but switched to a Heinie Rear, Dawson FO front. When I got my G35, I got a set of Warren Tactical with a small FO on the front. I like these because it makes it easier for my old eyes to grab onto that sight. Last night, I got to thinking that with my eyes, I might be better off with FO front and back since it would make it much easier to line up that sight picture.

Now I read this and people are suggesting that being able to see the front FO sight too easily can be a problem. Makes me wonder if I should put some electrical tape over the front sight and try that for a while. Or, maybe I should just get a red dot and switch to Open and be done with it!

[Seth]

Graham,
I'm 35. Other than being in less than optimal shape, I'm doing fine. My decision to go to irons came strictly from an interest in seeing what I was missing. I'm not a lifetime pistol shooter, having only picked up the hobby a few years ago. I shot a lot of rifle as a kid, but never tried anything at speed until recently.

I had convinced myself that since I was really 'learning' with Fiber, the problems it seems to create wouldn't apply, since I had no alternative frame of reference. But I was missing something that I couldn't put a finger on.

What I found, in my relatively inexperienced experiences, was that I couldn't get a consistent X- axis alignment and I couldn't call a shot at 15 yards or beyond. When screwing around with the sights, I found that the fiber was diverting my attention incorrectly and no matter what I did I was not consistent.

By way of comparison, at the match I shot on Saturday, there was a 12 round, single target at 15-20 yards with a reload in the middle. 6 rounds standing, reload, 6 rounds from a knee. On that target I was 1 pt. down and could tell you exactly which shot I pulled. All of the others were right where I aimed them. I'm not saying I COULDN'T do that with the fiber, but I was surprised at how well I shot them with the irons....

[ShaunB]

I went with the FO fronts as the solution to 50 year old eyes. It helped a bunch. The bigger and brighter the better for the dot.

After having a set of right eye reading lens - left eye distance lens shooting glasses made up I decided the dot cost too much precision and started going to smaller dots. Then it became apparant the dot was too easy to find and the visual confusion after finding it was a bigger problem than finding the front sight faster. The FO also greatly exagerated the effects of changing light the way I was using it, which was basically the dot on the target with it bottomed in the rear notch and filling it.

Back to iron. Then from a .190 to a .225 height (with appropriate rear sight adjustments) and had an easier time picking up the front sight.

Then I noticed I liked shooting my wifes gun better with a .115 width front. I went to mill my .125 front down to .115 and found it was cocked ~.005". It was effectively a .135" wide sight. Huge difference. Starting with a wide front sight and milling it thinner along the slide axis has its advantages. Too much windage in the rear sight might produce a similar problem.

Sooo, we have thoughts on the width of the front sight, the ratio between the front and rear width, the relative merits of FO and black iron. What are the thoughts on rear sight depth? The Bomars on my wifes gun are half again as deep as the adjustable Novak slot LPAs on mine. It seems this aids pickup on the other axis. I'm also thinking about making up a front sight with the stepped S&W profile, but weighing the few hours to do it against the probability it will just be another element that adds visual confusion.

I think in the end it just comes down to repeating the presentation/reloading/follow through properly until you align the sights smoothly without thinking about it, but not being side tracked or distracted by the hardware while you're developing that skill seems worthwhile.

In other words there are no points to be found in the gun, but there is no point in leaving points in the gun.

Thanks for the great info already provided and any other thoughts on this.

[benos]

Nice first post. Welcome to the forums.

Talking about sight widths with numbers - the width of the vertical light bars (on each side of the front sight) will be different for people with different length arms.

What I settled in on, especially as my eyes (not me) got older, was a front to rear sight width ratio that made the sum of the 2 light bars equal the width of the front sight. That setup is quick to acquire and easy to very accurately align. (That was around .115 - .120 for the front sight width.)

On rear sight notch depth, I used to fool around with deepening a Bomar a little, but eventually got tired of ruining sights. And then if I did happen to get one filed down perfectly, a bit deeper, then I get used to that so then I'd want all my current and future guns/sights like that. So eventually I gave up messing with notch depth altogether, and just shot the Bomars, and later Wilson's sights, the way they came.

(But if you are good with a file and you have the right one, it's not to difficult to widen a factory sight a bit without ruining it.)

On front sight height, the most important thing is that when the sights are aligned, there is not any slide visible in the bottom of the notch. I liked my front sight to be just tall enough so that, as the front sight's coming down into the notch, just as the slide disappears from the notch the front blade is level with the top of the notch.

Although I couldn't visually confirm/prove it, I always felt that relationship helped me "park the front sight" more expeditiously.
be

[P.Pres]

I could not agree more with all these post about switching to a black sight. FO always made me cheat
my sight picture and guesstimate the hits. I'm very peticular about my sights as it seems most on this thread
are. After fiddling with everything for the last year, depth, width, color, etc.. I've setteled on a .100 ft black sight
with a .140 rear notch. At first after I cut the rear that wide I thought I ruined the sight and may have gone too
far but after I got used to it and learned the advantages of all of that space between the sights, everything else
is now too tight and obstructive.

As far as depth of the rear, I cut one all the way down, bad idea, started to get a glare in the notch from the
body of the Bomar so then I filed down the top of the bomar to lower it but it got too thin and started a hairline crack
so stock depth it is for me.

One more thing, it is a great reassurance when you find out that your not crazy and others see what you see !!

This post has been edited by P.Pres: 13 August 2009 - 08:12 PM

[lugnut]

I wish I a post like this a couple years ago. Up until 6 months ago all my front sights were FO... Dawsons. Although I thought the FO helped me see the front sight quicker.... I too was wondering if I was settling for a substandard sight pic in many cases. The intensity and dirtiness of the FO varied what I was seeing. I thought I would give a black front a try. I love it. I don't notice it's harder to track and it's MUCH "simpler" for my mind/eyes to figure out. Black post lined up in rear notch... top of front post where I want my POI. Nice and simple. My front and rear are both BLACK!

[Walküre]

Guess I'll be the odd man out here...

Just recently got a new set of sights installed on my Colt Gov't - Brazos FO front, 10-8 U-notch rear. I'm finding out that not only can I acquire the front faster, but that I am actually getting a better sight picture than I was with plain irons. Translation - both faster and more accurate shots. It's a miracle, of sorts.

I think that the shape of the rear notch is helping, as my sight picture on my Limited gun - which also has a FO front - doesn't seem to work out quite as well as this new combo for Single-Stack. Anyone ever modded a Bo-mar style rear sight to a U-notch configuration?