[MustangGreg66]

Hey guys,

I might be switching things up and start shooting single stack and was contemplating loads. I'm pretty sure I want to load a 230gr RN bullet over some Clays power for a nice soft load that still makes major. I was wondering how much leading I will get out of a lead 230 going around 750fps. Enough to warrant using moly bullets?

I was taught growing up and until a couple years ago I used to clean all my guns spotless after every use, but now I'm not so into cleaning everything, I'll go a few range sessions without cleaning at all, tho I clean before every match. Taking that into consideration, how much would the lead gum up the works?

[Punkin Chunker]

MustangGreg66, on Aug 5 2009, 12:47 AM, said:

Hey guys,

I might be switching things up and start shooting single stack and was contemplating loads. I'm pretty sure I want to load a 230gr RN bullet over some Clays power for a nice soft load that still makes major. I was wondering how much leading I will get out of a lead 230 going around 750fps. Enough to warrant using moly bullets?

I was taught growing up and until a couple years ago I used to clean all my guns spotless after every use, but now I'm not so into cleaning everything, I'll go a few range sessions without cleaning at all, tho I clean before every match. Taking that into consideration, how much would the lead gum up the works?

I"ve been running 230 RN over 3.7 Clays with an OAL of 1.26" -- clocks @ 755 fps, surprisingly easy on the recoil for a major load, but a touch on the smoky side (no problem, just occasionally noticeable, depending on the wind/heat/humidity combination).

Leading has never really been a problem.

This post has been edited by Punkin Chunker: 05 August 2009 - 04:09 AM

[gfack]

Punkin Chunker, on Aug 5 2009, 07:08 AM, said:

MustangGreg66, on Aug 5 2009, 12:47 AM, said:

Hey guys,

I might be switching things up and start shooting single stack and was contemplating loads. I'm pretty sure I want to load a 230gr RN bullet over some Clays power for a nice soft load that still makes major. I was wondering how much leading I will get out of a lead 230 going around 750fps. Enough to warrant using moly bullets?

I was taught growing up and until a couple years ago I used to clean all my guns spotless after every use, but now I'm not so into cleaning everything, I'll go a few range sessions without cleaning at all, tho I clean before every match. Taking that into consideration, how much would the lead gum up the works?

I"ve been running 230 RN over 3.7 Clays with an OAL of 1.26" -- clocks @ 755 fps, surprisingly easy on the recoil for a major load, but a touch on the smoky side (no problem, just occasionally noticeable, depending on the wind/heat/humidity combination).

Leading has never really been a problem.

Same here. 230gr S&S Cast Bullets, 3.7 Clays, OAL 1.25. 755 fps. No problems with leading.

[CocoBolo]

I use the Precision Molly bullets in 200 gr over 4.2gr of clays. I think the OAL is 1.240 or so, on SWC's it is 1.260. This load gives the gun a pulse very similar to my limited gun. My perception is that it is soft, seems pretty clean and accuracy is very good. The more I shoot the gun the less build up I have. I just put a couple patches over a brush wrap a little chore boy on it run it in and out a few times then follow up with some JB Bore Paste and it looks like a mirror.

I run a 12lb variable recoil spring in it and it just seems to be very soft shooting and cycles very quckly.

You spend more time reloading with single stack, get some Wilson Combat 47DE mags they have some room in them with 8 and make reloads easy, as does the TecWare TechWell, and a good extend mag release is essential.

Single Stack ShootOut http://www.rivercityshooters.com 4th Sunday of September, its a blast.

[Chills1994]

MustangGreg wrote:

Quote

Enough to warrant using moly bullets?

I really don't know about how much, if any, moly coating gets deposited into the barrel. And if so, is the moly harder to get rid of than the lead?

At least with bare lead, you can try mixing up a solution, IIRC, of 50% vinegar and 50% hydrogen peroxide and letting that soak inside your (stainless?) barrel. But, me, personally, I like the pinch of chore boy wrapped around a bore brush. It's quicker and less of a hassle.

What's the price difference, delivered, of traditial cast and lubed lead vs. a moly coated lead pro-jo?

IIRC, I think I was using 3.8 grains of Clays for a 230 grain LRN and 4.2 Clays for a 200 grain SWC, both seated out to 1.25" .

Yeah, sure I could see some leading in the barrel. It didn't bother me. 10 seconds and about 5 passes with the chore boy wrapped bore brush and VOILA! the leading was all gone.

One of these days I will switch to either Winchester Super Target and/or Solo 1000 to see if they really do smoke less. I would be curious to know if those two powders actually created less leading also.

[CocoBolo]

I think that you will find the the Precion Moly bullet is about $2 per thousand more than the lead lubed. I tried the lead lubed but had feed issues so I went with what I knew worked and have not looked back.

The bullets are very popular with local shooters and I got started with them in my limited gun as a GM friend uses them exclusively, in just about everything. They won't work in an open gun they tend to tumble.

I ruined a CZ Barrel trying to dye its hair blonde with proxide and vinegar it got pitted. Maybe it was only rated for 14 minutes soaking instead of 15. Now I just use chore boy and elbow grease.

I save a little money by buying 3 to 5 cases at a time. The mail man doesn't even attempt to put them in the box they never leave the postoffice till I go get them.

[MustangGreg66]

CocoBolo, on Aug 5 2009, 11:00 AM, said:

I think that you will find the the Precion Moly bullet is about $2 per thousand more than the lead lubed. I tried the lead lubed but had feed issues so I went with what I knew worked and have not looked back.

The bullets are very popular with local shooters and I got started with them in my limited gun as a GM friend uses them exclusively, in just about everything. They won't work in an open gun they tend to tumble.

I ruined a CZ Barrel trying to dye its hair blonde with proxide and vinegar it got pitted. Maybe it was only rated for 14 minutes soaking instead of 15. Now I just use chore boy and elbow grease.

I save a little money by buying 3 to 5 cases at a time. The mail man doesn't even attempt to put them in the box they never leave the postoffice till I go get them.

Wow, thats certainly something to consider. I don't think I'd use that to soak the barrel though. I know some have sworn by it, but it's stories like that, that keep me from soaking in anything home made or without a label that says I can or should...

I dunno about the Moly only being $2 more... I've found lead 230gr 45 listed for $76/1k, but out of stock, and $70 or $86/1k unknown stock, but Precision moly's are $111/1k... so from what I'm seeing there is some savings with lead. If there wasn't I wouldn't even consider it and I'd just shoot Moly. Maybe I need to call up the companies I'm seeing here and see if they have bullets in stock...

[kar45]

MustangGreg66, on Aug 6 2009, 02:00 AM, said:

CocoBolo, on Aug 5 2009, 11:00 AM, said:

I think that you will find the the Precion Moly bullet is about $2 per thousand more than the lead lubed. I tried the lead lubed but had feed issues so I went with what I knew worked and have not looked back.

The bullets are very popular with local shooters and I got started with them in my limited gun as a GM friend uses them exclusively, in just about everything. They won't work in an open gun they tend to tumble.

I ruined a CZ Barrel trying to dye its hair blonde with proxide and vinegar it got pitted. Maybe it was only rated for 14 minutes soaking instead of 15. Now I just use chore boy and elbow grease.

I save a little money by buying 3 to 5 cases at a time. The mail man doesn't even attempt to put them in the box they never leave the postoffice till I go get them.

Wow, thats certainly something to consider. I don't think I'd use that to soak the barrel though. I know some have sworn by it, but it's stories like that, that keep me from soaking in anything home made or without a label that says I can or should...

I dunno about the Moly only being $2 more... I've found lead 230gr 45 listed for $76/1k, but out of stock, and $70 or $86/1k unknown stock, but Precision moly's are $111/1k... so from what I'm seeing there is some savings with lead. If there wasn't I wouldn't even consider it and I'd just shoot Moly. Maybe I need to call up the companies I'm seeing here and see if they have bullets in stock...

'Stang, try the 230RNL from S&S casting...the bullets he sent me are harder than a preacher's dick, no leading at 750fps. Hope this helps, Kirby

[steel1212]

Unless prices keep getting worse I WON'T use moly anymore. I would have moly build up in the chambers of my gun and have fail to feed issues. I don't have this with good lead bullets in .45. Granted the .45 is all I'll shoot lead in if I can help it as the velocities in other calibers just add to the smoke from what I've seen. Supposedly some of these newer powders reduce the smoke but all the vids I've seen there is still enough smoke there for it to be not a factor.

[LPatterson]

I get a lot less moly smear using Black Bullets International than I did with my previous moly bullet. A few minutes with a brush and some Blue Wonder, let it sit a few minutes and finish with some Butch's Bore Shine and clean that out with Kroil. I leave the bore wet and let the Kroil drip dry. I use a Redding seating die and I don't want to have to keep taking the die out to clean a bunch of lube crap out like I used to do with my Dillon die and lead.

[steel1212]

LPatterson, on Aug 6 2009, 10:52 AM, said:

I get a lot less moly smear using Black Bullets International than I did with my previous moly bullet. A few minutes with a brush and some Blue Wonder, let it sit a few minutes and finish with some Butch's Bore Shine and clean that out with Kroil. I leave the bore wet and let the Kroil drip dry. I use a Redding seating die and I don't want to have to keep taking the die out to clean a bunch of lube crap out like I used to do with my Dillon die and lead.

I would rather clean my die than have to work over my barrel....to each their own

[Boats]

Guns have used lead bullets with a simple bullet lube at about 850 FPS since the Civil war. It's never been an issue or caused any problems. You get problems when the bullet is too hard, or something else is put into the equation like moly or some sort of plastic coating.

I just cleaned my 38 spl 686 & S&W M&P 9 after shooting 50 rounds through each warm up then a full IDPA classifier. Call it 150 rounds each with over the counter bought plain lead bullets. Opened the guns up sprayed bores and cylinder with some Balistol then let them sit while putting the rest of my gear away. Came back with a Bronze bore brush wrapped with a patch wiped all a couple of strokes then a dry patch. No lead residue and both are slick clean.

Shoot lead without any of the "snake oil" coatings keep copper bullets out of the gun and you will not have any problems. My revolvers and 1911's have never seen anything but lead bullets. 9mm will use factory ammo at times, if I get all the copper out first even the 9 at higher velocity shoots lead fine.

Boats

[MustangGreg66]

Boats, on Aug 10 2009, 05:00 AM, said:

Guns have used lead bullets with a simple bullet lube at about 850 FPS since the Civil war. It's never been an issue or caused any problems. You get problems when the bullet is too hard, or something else is put into the equation like moly or some sort of plastic coating.

I just cleaned my 38 spl 686 & S&W M&P 9 after shooting 50 rounds through each warm up then a full IDPA classifier. Call it 150 rounds each with over the counter bought plain lead bullets. Opened the guns up sprayed bores and cylinder with some Balistol then let them sit while putting the rest of my gear away. Came back with a Bronze bore brush wrapped with a patch wiped all a couple of strokes then a dry patch. No lead residue and both are slick clean.

Shoot lead without any of the "snake oil" coatings keep copper bullets out of the gun and you will not have any problems. My revolvers and 1911's have never seen anything but lead bullets. 9mm will use factory ammo at times, if I get all the copper out first even the 9 at higher velocity shoots lead fine.

Boats

Hmm, what is your concern with keeping copper bullets out of the gun? I've heard guys at the range shoot a couple hundred rounds of lead and then shoot a few FMJ bullets to, they claim, clean the lead out of the barrel. They claim the copper pushes the lead out... Don't know if this is true, is that a bad idea?

I've always had trouble with cleaning lead out. My dad has some 38/357 revolvers and they always seem to get a little deposit in them that takes forever to scrub out. Mainly I'm using shooters choice and a brush, maybe I'll have to try your method.

9mm is one caliber I was concerned about using lead in, I figured perhaps that the higher velocity would lead more with more agressive loads, not major loads, but something more than minor power factor. I loaded up some 124gr lead bullets that I happened uppon a while back, just under 125PF, I was working from a loading manual, aiming for 125PF but didn't quite make it. I didn't see much if any leading in those, tho they did shoot dirty, BUT if I bumped up the speed I was concerned about more leading and fouling, is that warranted? I did notice the 9mm loads smoking a bit, I think I was using titegroup as a powder, so that would figure from what I've read about that powder and lead...

As for the 45, I've never shot lead in this caliber but shot plated fine, and some Moly coated fine. I was just wondering how the Lead fouling in the slower moving slug compared to a more protected moly bullet... maybe I'll just have to order some and find out for myself...

[Boats]

I don't know anything about Moly other than rifle shooters were all for it some years ago and now not many use it. It has it's own set of fowling problems.

Copper after lead is not so much of a problem. Lead over copper is another thing, takes a long time for the barrel to settle back down and clean well when going back to lead bullets. Thing is you think all the copper is out but it's not. Barrel can look absolutely clean but put some Hoppes on a patch wet the bore down and come back next day. Guarantee it's going to be green when you run a clean patch through. Takes several days to get it all out.

38's in a .357 have something else going on. With a lead bullet it's important it fills the bore on ignition, tight chamber and a fairly soft bullet it upsets a bit on ignition seals nice and everything is fine. With a long 357 cylinder the lead bullet can let gas get by before it gets to the leade causing gas cutting as it passes the bullet and lead the barrels leade. This can be cured if the bullets are not too hard and you use a fast powder that "bumps' it good on ignition. I don't have any trouble with leading in my 357's but am working within soft bullet fast powder parameters. Go to slower powder it may be a problem.

Smoke is another thing you hear about. No doubt they do smoke, it's the lube. Honestly it caused me a problem one stage one time. Unusual condition. Flashlight stage indoor IDPA match. When they cut the lights off the vent fans cut off too. Stage was 6 one side of the barrel reload 6 opposite reload again and 6 more switching again. Last 6 flashlight lit up the smoke obscuring the target. Other revolver shooters after me saw what was going on, held the lights up high instead of with the guns weak hand in a married grip and saw the target fine. Honestly that's the only time smoke ever hindered my match shooting.

9mm perhaps jacked is the way to go. I use both, lead in one jacketed in another. Mostly due to the higher velocity and picky feed issues with one . Old Browning High Power shoots lead just fine. M&P 9L almost always use factory jacketed. This classifier used lead in the M&P because I did not have any jacketed and cleaned the copper out real good before the match.

Boats

This post has been edited by Boats: 10 August 2009 - 03:24 PM

[technetium-99m]

Hard lead bullets sized properly should not give you any leading at pistol velocity. I load lead in just about everything from 45 to 38 super and have no problems with shooting 6-700 rounds in a day with no cleaning of the bore.

[Bongo Boy]

I'm a total beginner at handloading and, being an analytic type did all the reading I could tolerate on the whole leading thing. In the mean time, I just bought a mold and started casting. Initially, I picked up about 40 lbs of lead from the range and cast using that, then I bought some lead the seller claimed to be 'pure' lead, then cast wheel weight lead. All in all, about 1,000 rds now using a mix of all the above in the neighborhood of 700 fps or so, just based off of recipes from the internet (here, actually). Granted, only 1,000 rds so far, but I have seen no evidence of lead build up. Bore looks bright with some dullness in the first 1.5" out of the chamber. I use a stainless 'tornado' (?) brush about 4 passes, the rest is a swab. Bright and clean. Running 'BAC' lube from the Carnauba Red guy on ebay, and have a lot of smoke with Clays. I have no idea if it's the Clays or the lube, but am going to change lube to see. Unlikely I'll change Clays until someone slaps me in the head.

So, from a newbie's experience at least, no lead to be concerned with under the described condx.

This post has been edited by Bongo Boy: 05 September 2009 - 05:42 PM

[Boats]

You are probably not going to get away from the smoke it's from the lube, question is how much trouble it's going to cause. About the only time I notice smoke is indoor matches flashlight stages when we cut the blowers off with the lights. Otherwise little bit of smoke from the Lube is not an issue.

Boats

[BMartens]

Lead is by far the cheapest route for .45 reloading. I have shot 1000's of lead bullets of all shapes and sizes through .45's with very little leading, especially at medium velocities. I have also shot a few thousand molly bullets [BBI] with no issues. I have no cleaning issues with either bullet.

What I do find is loading molly bullets is cleaner and you don't have to stop every 400-500 rounds and clean dies. I load on a SDB and with lead bullets I pull the head off at least every 500 rounds and clean out any built up lube, especially in the seater die. Sometimes lube will pack in there and you will start noticing shorter OAL's. Keep the seater clean and you'll have no problems.

Lead smokes. If smoke is too much for you then you'll have to go another direction. Molly does solve some of the smoke issue but, not all. There is still smoke. I think, from experience, that Titegroup and lead in any caliber wins the smoke contest hands down. I simply do not use TG with anything that is lead, including molly bullets.

3.7 Clays with 230 LRN or 4.3 Clays with 200 LSWC @ 1.242 OAL is hard to beat, makes major and is guaranteed to smoke some.

I also shoot lead in 9mm, outdoors only, and I'm close to 6000 rounds now with molly. The molly bullets are much better in 9mm than lead. Better accuracy and not to much smoke with WSF. They do smoke a lot with TG in 9mm and I find WSF to be better for lead and molly. I did try TG in 9mm with lead and molly and it works, it's accurate but, it smokes like a locomotive. I do shoot major matches with plated or jacketed 9mm bullets and TG.

In bulk quantites, 3000+, molly is only a few dollars more in 9mm and well worth it. The price difference is much greater as the bullets get bigger.

Like above, my .45's have never seen a jacketed bullet or a factory round.

[stgdz]

So it seems clays is the one that every one goes with then? Currently I run unique because that is what my local pedler (john at gunstop) uses for everything handgun related. With my missouri bullets it smokes a lot, I have tried clays and there was little difference in the volume of smoke.


Someone once told me solo powder is pretty good and this video shows what looks like a slight improvement over my two other powders http://www.youtube.c...h?v=84VgiNhB1wE, there is still that smoke hanging in the air.


I guess the only way to avoid the smoke is to go jacketed though huh?

[Paul Burtchell]

stgdz, on Sep 17 2009, 02:37 PM, said:

So it seems clays is the one that every one goes with then? Currently I run unique because that is what my local pedler (john at gunstop) uses for everything handgun related. With my missouri bullets it smokes a lot, I have tried clays and there was little difference in the volume of smoke.


Someone once told me solo powder is pretty good and this video shows what looks like a slight improvement over my two other powders http://www.youtube.c...h?v=84VgiNhB1wE, there is still that smoke hanging in the air.


I guess the only way to avoid the smoke is to go jacketed though huh?

Not only jacketed, but jacketed with a jacketed base such as jhp (jacketed hollow point ) or CMJ's (complete metal jacket). Jacketed bullets with exposed lead bases will still smoke to some degree.

[Harmon]

bullet fit is more important than hardness in the 45.

ive shot plain dead soft lead in my 45s without problems.

shoot WST with lead and it smokes WAY less than CLAYS and you dont give up any softness.

Harmon

[stgdz]

baerburtchell, on Sep 17 2009, 02:54 PM, said:

stgdz, on Sep 17 2009, 02:37 PM, said:

So it seems clays is the one that every one goes with then? Currently I run unique because that is what my local pedler (john at gunstop) uses for everything handgun related. With my missouri bullets it smokes a lot, I have tried clays and there was little difference in the volume of smoke.


Someone once told me solo powder is pretty good and this video shows what looks like a slight improvement over my two other powders http://www.youtube.c...h?v=84VgiNhB1wE, there is still that smoke hanging in the air.


I guess the only way to avoid the smoke is to go jacketed though huh?

Not only jacketed, but jacketed with a jacketed base such as jhp (jacketed hollow point ) or CMJ's (complete metal jacket). Jacketed bullets with exposed lead bases will still smoke to some degree.

Yes but isn't it the lube that is smoking with lead though?

WST gives off a bigger flash correct, but less smoke?

[Carlos]

TOXICOLOGY CONSIDERATIONS:

1) Peroxide + vinegar + lead = LEAD ACETATE - WHICH IS A HIGHLY TOXIC SUBSTANCE AND A HAZARDOUS WASTE PRODUCT. It is easily absorbed through your skin. Very dangerous stuff to be avoided at all costs. Besides, it can likely pit your barrel. But the lead does get disolved - that is true.

2) "Moly coating" includes plastic & other ingredients. Upon firing, those chemicals are burned, and just after "Range Clear" is called, we walk right through a cloud of that chemical smoke. I do no know WHAT effect that chemical smoke has on the body long term.


Lead in general: I am not "anti-lead"; I use it and I RO a monthly match where lead and moly are used. What lead demands is: cleanliness. High lead counts come from "ingestion" or eating the lead. We manage to "eat lead" when we fail to wash our face right after the match, or eat with our hands after a match (for the record - I use a knife & fork on pizza -always, due to lead). You have to be careful around lead - but it is easy to do & effective (my last blood count was around 10 ppb/d.l. and I have never gone over 13).

CocoBolo, on Aug 5 2009, 10:00 PM, said:

I ruined a CZ Barrel . . . with proxide and vinegar it got pitted. Maybe it was only rated for 14 minutes soaking instead of 15.

[Trini]

I have been using 200 SWC with 4.4 grs of Clays.. Have 2 Springfields SS with one have new barrel and it takes 4.4 grs to make major in the older Springer... When I use 230's I can get by using 3.9 grs of Clays.

T

[entropic]

I've never had leading while shooting 4.5gr of clays over an SNS 230gr. I probably never shot more than 1k without cleaning, but leading was never a problem. I did switch to moly just because the wax would mess with my seating depth. Even with a good bell on the case, it would still get into the seating die. SNS are decent bullets though...The owner shoots at a club I go to occasionally and everyone uses his bullets except the open guys (and me I guess).

This post has been edited by entropic: 13 October 2009 - 04:05 PM