[relictrader]

DOES ANYONE MFG AND SELL AN ENTRY LEVEL PISTOL and provide a proof target.

20 rounds off Ransom Rest and I would me buy one in an instant.

I have over $300 with 2 smiths and now is at best 6in groups at 25 yds.

If new handgun purchers are going to require replaceing a new handguns parts in
order to acheve a accurate weapon with such things as (a winning pistol and see if it
doesn't read like a standard IPSC pistol's pedigree: Novak tritium sights, Nowlin
match barrel, Wilson extractor, Kings combat trigger, Wilson ambi thumb safety,
Wolff springs, S&A mag funnel hand checkered and custom blended to the frame,
Springfield Custom "Delta" hammer, McCormick sear, 20 lpi front strap checkering,
lowered and flared ejection port, polished feedramp, Springfield Custom beavertail grip.

THE ONLY PRINT THAT I CAN FIND MENTIONING HANDGUN ACCURACY IS FBI REQUIREMENTS?

GG

[GrumpyOne]

First, welcome to the forum! Second, what are you shooting? I ask because $300 is a very small drop in the bucket for custom work. As far as accurate handguns, there are many out there, right out of the box, but cheap they ain't. You could buy (depending on what arena you want to shoot in) a Springfield Mil Spec for around $500 and add all those parts to to it (probably around $1,000) to get a single stack match pistol, or go straight for the loaded models like a Springfield Trophy Match for around $1,200 - $1,500. If you are wanting an open gun, STI is probably the cheapest you can find which will shoot right out of the box. I think STI guarantees less than a 1 1/2" groups at 50 yards with their Trubor or Grandmaster, but they're gonna run you upwards of $2,800 for a Trubor, $3,500 for a Grandmaster. Remember, you always get what you pay for....

PS. Not to break you down or anything , but please proof read your post before submitting. I had to read it several times before I finally understood what you were asking.

[Jaxshooter]

SV provides test targets 5 rounds not 20.

[UW Mitch]

If someone shoots 20 rounds at one target at 25 yards there should be only one medium sized hole. If you're shooting some kind of bulleye match, maybe it matters, but I haven't had any accuracy with out of the box Springfields and a Dan Wesson.

~Mitch

[GrumpyOne]

UW Mitch, on Jul 31 2009, 07:22 PM, said:

If someone shoots 20 rounds at one target at 25 yards there should be only one medium sized hole. If you're shooting some kind of bulleye match, maybe it matters, but I haven't had any accuracy with out of the box Springfields and a Dan Wesson.

~Mitch

To which Springfield model are you referring to? Doesn't Rob L. shoot production Springfields and win?

[bofe954]

American Rifleman magazine publishes group sizes with a few different types of ammo when they review a handgun. It is usually 25yds off of a sandbag. Here is an example of one article about the STI GP6-

http://www.americanr...123-sti_gp6.pdf

They say it shoots around 3 inch groups. That is pretty typical for most of the production type guns they review. Elsewhere in the site the review a Kimber Target Match they say they get 2 inch groups from a rest, 2.5 off hand.

I would expect most entry level handguns to shoot less than 6 inch groups at 25 yds. The guns I see that come with proof targets are usually advertising 1.5" groups. These aren't entry level though.

How are you shooting groups, what ammo?

What are you shooting now and what have your smith's been doing to it?

A milspec 1911 springfield with a $50 EGW bushing should easily shoot less than 6" from a rest.

[relictrader]

Thanks Guy's you are a lot of help and sorry that my post is not clear enough....

I may not be capable of making myself understood,here goes!

My first gun as a new-be match shooter is a 5" Springfield SS with fixed sights,

and granted it may be the ammo that is being used (REM Golden Sabor) 4x5 shot groups.

Power factor values are all over the board when fired offhand without rest and raised or

lowered before fireing........ same with soft hold or firm wrist holds.

I think the larger calibers have to much case capacity for less than 4 gr of powder.

I checked the water capacity with bullet seated in 45,38,9mm.The 9mm x160gr RN

has the powder tight against the primer and P.F is remarkably close thru 20 rds with little recoil.

THIS SUPER 9 COMBO MAY BE THE BEST AND CHEAPEST CALIBER of them all????

GG

[mildot1]

My stock Taurus 1911 will do much better than that.

I am really having a hard time understanding your question, Where are you going with the 9,38ETC comparison??

What type of group can you get with winchester white box?? Maybe take the reloads out of the equation??

Wish you luck

[Pezco]

Relic,

Not sure what division you want to compete in, but a cheap used Glock will give you 2" at 25 yards. No it doesn't have a proof target, that part is in the trigger finger.

Good luck in your quest!

[G-ManBart]

relictrader, on Jul 31 2009, 07:14 PM, said:

Thanks Guy's you are a lot of help and sorry that my post is not clear enough....

I may not be capable of making myself understood,here goes!

My first gun as a new-be match shooter is a 5" Springfield SS with fixed sights,

and granted it may be the ammo that is being used (REM Golden Sabor) 4x5 shot groups.

Power factor values are all over the board when fired offhand without rest and raised or

lowered before fireing........ same with soft hold or firm wrist holds.

I think the larger calibers have to much case capacity for less than 4 gr of powder.

I checked the water capacity with bullet seated in 45,38,9mm.The 9mm x160gr RN

has the powder tight against the primer and P.F is remarkably close thru 20 rds with little recoil.

THIS SUPER 9 COMBO MAY BE THE BEST AND CHEAPEST CALIBER of them all????

GG

Are you in the U.S. or somewhere else? If you want to shoot Limited division, forget about a 1911 and forget about 9mm or 38S. You're going to need a high-capacity gun (S_I, Para, Caspian, Glock, Witness etc) with a minimum .40 for Major. You won't see many folks using tritium night sights on competition guns either...a few might because it's a gun they carry, but that's about it.

Of all the big brands I can think of, I think only Les Baer routinely sells 1911s with an accuracy guarantee and test target....just checked and Wilson does guarantee accuracy, but I'm not sure about the test target. R,

This post has been edited by G-ManBart: 31 July 2009 - 09:51 PM

[UW Mitch]

GrumpyOne, on Jul 31 2009, 04:52 PM, said:

UW Mitch, on Jul 31 2009, 07:22 PM, said:

If someone shoots 20 rounds at one target at 25 yards there should be only one medium sized hole. If you're shooting some kind of bulleye match, maybe it matters, but I haven't had any accuracy with out of the box Springfields and a Dan Wesson.

~Mitch

To which Springfield model are you referring to? Doesn't Rob L. shoot production Springfields and win?

What I mean specifically is that I've not picked up a factory gun that I really felt wasn't good enough for USPSA - they're all accurate enough. One doesn't need a bullseye. If one is a newbie they could shoot a Glock, XD, XDm. Anything will work just fine for many years - it's all about the thing making the gun go bang - the shooter.

~Mitch

[GrumpyOne]

UW Mitch, on Aug 1 2009, 02:05 AM, said:

GrumpyOne, on Jul 31 2009, 04:52 PM, said:

UW Mitch, on Jul 31 2009, 07:22 PM, said:

If someone shoots 20 rounds at one target at 25 yards there should be only one medium sized hole. If you're shooting some kind of bulleye match, maybe it matters, but I haven't had any accuracy with out of the box Springfields and a Dan Wesson.

~Mitch

To which Springfield model are you referring to? Doesn't Rob L. shoot production Springfields and win?

What I mean specifically is that I've not picked up a factory gun that I really felt wasn't good enough for USPSA - they're all accurate enough. One doesn't need a bullseye. If one is a newbie they could shoot a Glock, XD, XDm. Anything will work just fine for many years - it's all about the thing making the gun go bang - the shooter.

~Mitch

Ah! I was mistaken! I thought you were saying that they weren't accurate enough.

[GrumpyOne]

relictrader, on Jul 31 2009, 09:14 PM, said:

Thanks Guy's you are a lot of help and sorry that my post is not clear enough....

I may not be capable of making myself understood,here goes!

My first gun as a new-be match shooter is a 5" Springfield SS with fixed sights,

and granted it may be the ammo that is being used (REM Golden Sabor) 4x5 shot groups.

Power factor values are all over the board when fired offhand without rest and raised or

lowered before fireing........ same with soft hold or firm wrist holds.

I think the larger calibers have to much case capacity for less than 4 gr of powder.

I checked the water capacity with bullet seated in 45,38,9mm.The 9mm x160gr RN

has the powder tight against the primer and P.F is remarkably close thru 20 rds with little recoil.THIS SUPER 9 COMBO MAY BE THE BEST AND CHEAPEST CALIBER of them all????

GG

The quote above is not entirely accurate, it depends on what powder you are using. 4 grains of Titegroup is not going to be near as "fluffy" as say 4 grains of Power Pistol (my fav powder for .40). It could be that the powder is falling away from the primer causing a delay in ignition or even incomplete burning of the powder, but I doubt this. The Golden Saber bullets aren't your problem, they are excellent bullets. I'm curious as to what exactly you are loading and with what....What powder? OAL? Bullet weight? By the way, a 160grn bullet in a 9mm is quite large. Most of the larger .357 bullets for .38/.357 would only be 158 grains.
It sounds by this statement "I checked the water capacity with bullet seated in 45,38,9mm.The 9mm x160gr RN has the powder tight against the primer and P.F is remarkably close thru 20 rds with little recoil.[/i]THIS SUPER 9 COMBO MAY BE THE BEST AND CHEAPEST CALIBER of them all????" that you are trying to load the same powder in the same weights for all calibers. You need to get a reloading manual or do some research on the web for load data. Some powders won't work well with some calibers and some can be downright dangerous due to burn rates, volume, etc. BTW, 38 super is not going to be cheap!

[relictrader]

I may not be capable of making myself understood,here goes!

My first gun as a new-be match shooter is a 5" Springfield SS with fixed sights,
has the powder tight against the primer and P.F is remarkably close thru 20 rds with little recoil.[/i]THIS SUPER 9 COMBO MAY BE THE BEST AND CHEAPEST CALIBER of them all????

GG[/quote]
The quote above is not entirely accurate, it depends on what powder you are using. 4 grains of Titegroup is not going to be near as "fluffy" as say 4 grains of Power Pistol (my fav powder for .40). It could be that the powder is falling away from the primer causing a delay in ignition or even incomplete burning of the powder, but I doubt this. The Golden Saber bullets aren't your problem, they are excellent bullets. I'm curious as to what exactly you are loading and with what....What powder? OAL? Bullet weight? By the way, a 160grn bullet in a 9mm is quite large. Most of the larger .357 bullets for .38/.357 would only be 158 grains.
It sounds by this statement "I checked the water capacity with bullet seated in 45,38,9mm.The 9mm x160gr RN has the powder tight against the primer and P.F is remarkably close thru 20 rds with little recoil.[/i]THIS SUPER 9 COMBO MAY BE THE BEST AND CHEAPEST CALIBER of them all????" that you are trying to load the same powder in the same weights for all calibers. You need to get a reloading manual or do some research on the web for load data. Some powders won't work well with some calibers and some can be downright dangerous due to burn rates, volume, etc. BTW, 38 super is not going to be cheap!
[/quote]


THANKS FOR YOUR THOUGHTFULL RESPONCE.....

IT is plain to me that a Entry Level handgun is going to require serious MONIES,if accuracy is an issue!
"HOW CAN SOME ONE SHOOT A INACCURATE WEAPON THAT IS NOT EQUAL TO THIER SKILLS"?????
I tell all my youth safety classes(Voted Best In State) that improveing ones self everyday builds charater for life,
so banging to here it go bang or do anything without a achiveable goal is not an option.

How can anyone be satified with a inaccurate handgun that does not give you a chance to win or compete?

(QUOTE!You need to get a reloading manual or do some research)
When 80 to 100 top Master shooters show up every weekend for matches and 65% of them are useing
less than 4 gr SOLO, a clean burning shotgun powers,that tells me something.

(QUOTE:It could be that the powder is falling away from the primer causing a delay in ignition or even incomplete burning of the powder, but I doubt this)
PPC, a rifle cart,is short / fat for this very reason, to improve burning rates.

GG

[M ammo]

What type of shooting are you doing?

How inaccurate is inaccurate?

It is hard to,,,, know just how to, help,,,,,,

What type pf gun are you shooting?

Pistol’s a glock 17, with normal 9mm ammunition. will shoot just fine.
Not many people can out shoot the accuracy of a good gun with good ammo.

I did not say, a great gun with match ammo,

what might help,,, I don't know what type of gun,, you are talking about,,,
a trigger job,,, always helps.


Jim M ammo

[SA Friday]

Entry level handgun for what shooting sport? If it's for USPSA, IPSC, IDPA, a used glock is more than adequate and about $400 for a really good one. Uncle Mikes makes a holster that works for about $20, and double mag pouches that work for about $20 a piece. A decent belt is $40 or $50. You go as expensive as you want, but you don't have to.

Yep, some of the best handgun reloading powders are also shotgun powders. Solo 1000, Clays, Universal Clays... All three sitting under my reloading bench and all three say they are used for shotgun and pistol on the jug. Inaccurate, uh no. I've used all three in loads that consistantly hit an 18"x24" steel plate at 100 yds bench rested.

I don't know where the last quote came from or the context it was written, but I can tell you if you are using so little powder in a pistol cartridge that you are blowing burning powder out the barrel, you are way too light. I've used all but Universal Clays in 9mm, 40S&W, and 45 ACP without this happening, and I could use Univ Clays in all three but just haven't tried it in 45 ACP.

I may be wrong because your post is a bit confusing, but you appear to have some misconceptions. It also appears you are a fairly new reloader.

BTW, if you are shooting anything other than some Saturday night special for a pistol, the inaccuracy is probably NOT the gun.

[chirpy]

A new shooter should not go to a match thinking he/she is going to win (IMHO) that will come with experience and training. A new shooter should go to a match and concentrate on being safe and getting thru the match. Safety includes, in part, following instructions of the RO, the draw and reholster, movement with the finger out of the trigger guard, reloads...Practice should include, in part, safety, watching the front sight, trigger press, movement, reloads... and etc. Practice should concentrate on one or two areas so as to not "overload" the new shooter. Dry fire and practice reloads (with an unloaded weapon and no ammo even in the same room!) can be done at home. This is just for starters!

The above is just for starters.

Also, I agree that 99.99999% of the handguns put out today will outshoot 99.9999 if not 100% of shooters with quality ammo (and most of the time with not so good ammo.


JMHO's after 30+ year experience and competition.

Richard

PS: Save your money for ammo. Don't spend it on the handgun until you have the experience required to gage accurate vs. inaccurate.

This post has been edited by chirpy: 01 August 2009 - 09:47 AM

[bdpaz]

I think it help if you would be more specific then "inaccurate". If you can list the gun, ammo, distance, and group size it will be more clear.

As for entry level guns, I recently shot a match with a stock M&P Compact 9 using 124 MG FMJ with Titegroup just to get some rounds through it. It was more than accurate enough to be competitive (although reloading with the short magazines wasn't exactly speedy).

[eerw]

different shooting sports have different needs and balances

what exactly are you talking about??

[kgunz11]

The PPC cartridges are designed to spread the ignition across a larger powder column which gives more consistent ignition and burn, got nothing to do with the case capacity in which you reference to with your Solo 1000 example.

I'm curious also to what type of matches are drawing 80-100 M Class shooters that 65% of are all shooting Solo 1000. Are they USPSA matches? Around here, a few people shoot Solo 1000, but it's not even half of the competitors that could be. In my experiences, you will need more than 4.0gr to make minor PF of Solo 1000. My friend shooting his Glock 34 with 4.2gr of Solo 1000 at 1.125" COAL doesn't make minor. Each gun is different though.

As far as accuracy is concerned, I think most all modern handguns these days will way out shoot the shooter.

[ima45dv8]

relictrader,

I merged the new thread you started into this one since it was an almost identical post used to start the new thread.
Let's try to keep the discussion here so we don't get fragmented while trying to assist you.

====================

Some of the questions already asked would help us help you.

Gun, ammo, expected accuracy and how it's measured, reloads or factory ammo, shooting discipline you want to use it for, etc. (lots o' variables, huh?).

[relictrader]

[quote name='ima45dv8' date='Aug 1 2009, 10:47 AM' post='1028937']
[color="#006400"]relictrader,

]

Thanks for your wise words,and yes I haven't been hangunning long.
I love shooting rifles for group records understand what confidence in gun means.
I generaly start year off with 5 new rifle barrels,but use only the best ones.
I find it acceptable in handgunning to miss-targets because you may required to empty
your gun anyway for safety reasons.I hear shooters say that more lead in target the
fastest wins.That may be OK to blow powder out the end of barrel if PF is OK'ed and recoil is milder.

CAN PREMIUM HANDGUN BARRELS BE GAIN-TWIST? or does twist even matter?

This post has been edited by relictrader: 01 August 2009 - 11:07 AM

[kgunz11]

Schuemann makes gain twist barrels, but it's not proven to improve accuracy one way or the other. If the gun is built properly, it should shoot.

[NoSteel]

I am really starting to be confused as to what direction you are trying to lead us here. We still need to know what shooting discipline you are talking about. The requirments for Bullseye shooting can differ quite a bit from USPSA competition etc. I for one know that most any pistol I shoot is going to be more than accurate enough for my local USPSA shoots and any major shoots I would want to attend. What I'm saying is in the heat of the match, the gun is not what it is going to take to get me thru. There are just to many other factors I need to work on before the gun becomes what is holding me back. As far a loads go, I build what I feel is comfortable for me to shoot and keep within the Power factor rules. The MOST accurate load may not be what is most comfortable to shoot in a match. Obviously in bullseye the opposite may be true.

I think we need to start over here and have you give us a better, more defined statement as to what you are looking for. If the members of this board can't answer your direct questions then nobody can... The knowledge is here.

[TonyT]

It's a draw of the cards when you expect an inexpensive pistol to provide excellent accuracy. In a 1911 style pistol the STI Edge or SA Trophy Match would be the lowest price point for good accuracy out of the box. I would rather spend the money up front that try to correct with gunsmithing afterwards. In a platic framed gun the Glock and S&W M&P fullsize models or the classic Sig's also offer goood accuracy right out of the box.