[No.343]

I have been a little disillusioned with my two visits to USPSA Nationals events and would like to try a big ICORE match in the near future. Does ICORE have the same problems that USPSA has with people's talent not matching their classification? This doesn't affect my desire to attend, nor does it influence my opinion of the USPSA events that I referred to earlier. I'm a beginner at this revolver stuff and don't expect to do well. I'm just curious.

[ChrisC]

i have only attended one match to date but I did not notice the sandbagging that you see at other types of matches.

[Bubber]

No.343, on Jul 27 2009, 08:11 AM, said:

I have been a little disillusioned with my two visits to USPSA Nationals events and would like to try a big ICORE match in the near future. Does ICORE have the same problems that USPSA has with people's talent not matching their classification? This doesn't affect my desire to attend, nor does it influence my opinion of the USPSA events that I referred to earlier. I'm a beginner at this revolver stuff and don't expect to do well. I'm just curious.

It probably does to a small part. But not because any of us Sandbag, it is just that the data collected may or maynot reflect our level we may achieve. With our competitiors spread so thinly about on any occassion a god B shooter may be able to score really well at a Regional Match. Sometimes it is because when of the higher classified people are pushing the edge we may tend to fall off, and the good consistant A or B shooter may prevail on such occassion. You do know about the MidWest Regional in Tontitown, Ar. the 8th of August? Come on down and put us all to shame.

[Carmoney]

I feel pretty certain the sandbagging you noticed did not occur in Revolver Division. If anything, Revolver Division has suffered from some fairly severe class "inflation" over the past couple years. It used to be very difficult to make Master in USPSA Revolver a few years back, but these days a new Revolver GM gets made every other month. I don't think too many people are intentionally grandbagging it, I think it's mainly just a result of USPSA assigning high hit factors on some of the newer classifiers that are unrealistically low.

While our numbers are growing, I really believe most of us view ourselves as shooting against the pack on a heads-up basis. Trying to sandbag yourself into B or C class doesn't really get you anywhere in our division, at Nationals or anyplace else.

Or so it seems to me.

[No.343]

Bubber, I wish I could shoot in Arkansas with you. The boss sent me to Florida and I wonder if he expects me to retire while doing this job. It's the never ending story.

I never realized that there was inflation in the Revolver division of USPSA. I don't worry about it too much. I realized a little while ago that the only person I'm capable of beating is me. I think I set my goals a little too high and suffered a little bit of burn out when I didn't achieve them. The thought occured to me, however, that knowing what a good score was might give me a little realistic motivation. I am ready to hit it hard again, and as soon as I get some large pistol primers I hope to do a lot of shooting.

[Houngan]

Classifier stages have very little in common with major match stages. That's the problem in a nutshell. When I win a stage, I do it with my feet and my planning, not my ability to stand still and shoot six rounds.

H.

[Blueridge]

Off topic....Ooops.

This post has been edited by Blueridge: 07 August 2009 - 09:16 AM

[pskys2]

Sandbagging is sometimes obvious, I've seen it in other Divisions. It's human nature, the bad side, and if you watch and listen it is obvious who is doing it. I've yet to see it in Revo due to the lack of participation. If you start seeing big payouts, big crowds or other incentives it will show up in Revo Division, guaranteed.

Right now it seems there is more movement in the Revo Classifications, I'm not sure if it's a result of interest meeting ability or a difference in high scores. In the past USPSA actually just offset the top Limited Scores a % and used that to class Revo's (some classifier series seemed high, some low). I'm under the impression that they are using actual scores now, and that creates a problem due to the lack of GM's shooting Revo consistently.
But as Mike says right now it's so heads up it seems a moot point.

All that said just because someone does good/bad in Classifiers isn't always a sign of sand/grand bagging. Some succumb to the lure of classifiers and either get overly nervous and cautious or overly excited and go balls to the walls. Neither will get you a good score.

The trouble with ICORE is the lack of clubs, classifiers and ICORE letting scores drop after a year. The good thing of ICORE Matches is that the majority of their money matches seem to be done on the Lewis Class System which basically assigns you a class from your shooting that match. That system doesn't really recognize a competitors long term developement but does virtually eliminate the sandbaggers advantage.

This post has been edited by pskys2: 07 August 2009 - 11:00 AM

[jmax]

Actually class is primarily determined by classifiers unless someone arrives that was able to get into the sport, get early classifiers at a low level and the smoke a match, they are caught and re-classified. ICORE classification breaks are being changed and are based on sound statistics, populations of shooters within class and not random drawn boundary's.

As to classifiers there are those that have some movement and all require a reload of two.

[m610]

My only experience with sandbagging was years ago at an IHMSA state championship.

I had shot for years in a lower category, went out and practiced like crazy for 6 weeks, and shot a REALLY good match....so good, I shot 3 levels above my rating.

I would have won the state match, but they called me on "sandbagging" and bumped me up into the level I had just shot...that ONE time....so I didn't place at the new level.

Not that it really mattered. I did learn I COULD shoot better with practice....then I got busy with work/career/family/etc...........

So here I am....looking forward to the ICORE match tomorrow in Albany....