[JThompson]

When it's time to shoot forget everything but this thought: Shoot the sights/dot. Nothing else matters at that point it's all a distraction from what you have to do and that's get rounds on targets. If you go up to the line thinking... I have to stand this way, or I have to hold the gun that way etc etc you will have problems getting rounds on targets. We know that you can only have one conscious thought at a time, so it's shoot the dot for me. I would submit that "shoot alphas" is even to much, because if I'm shooting the sights/dot I'm already shooting alphas, so I say shoot the dot and all the other BS doesn't matter.

We had a weekly match last night and I did all my stage planning and then when it was time to shoot my program was like this. LMR leave right hand on gun and take a couple of cleansing breaths, drop my shoulders, drop hands to side and give my fingers a little wiggle to get rid of any tension there. Take a breath and begin a slow exhale... SHOT THE DOT.... Beep.

I dropped 15 points over three stages with 425 match points. My times were solid, but I didn't care. I simply let my dot dictate the speed. As it turned out it was good enough to win all three, but one was won with the fourth fastest time... (Points are good)

Stage plan then shoot the dot idiot. Shot the dot. shoot the dot. shoot the dot.

... .... --- --- - - .... . -.. --- - for you Navy types.

Did I mention shoot the dot?

-Angus Hobdell

"Forget about all that other F-Ing Shit, it doesn't matter, it's all a distraction" He went on to see that, "shooting is the easy part, it's all that other crap that gets in the way of the shooting that screws you up." He said something like, the best shooters have learned how to forget about all the other crap and the pressure and just shoot

I like that... JUST SHOOT

Just Shoot It!

Sounds like a cool shirt to me.

JT

This post has been edited by JThompson: 24 July 2009 - 06:48 AM

[Sean Gaines]

excellent post

I truly believe this also, but to add to the topic. before you can be successfull,with good times and good hits by just by shooting your sights, you must have mastered or at least muscled memoried everything else. Like You shouldn't have to think about your draw, because you have mastered it. You shouldn't have to think about your reloads, because you have mastered it. You shouldn't have to think about your footwork etc, etc, ONce you you get to the point that your talking about, you have to have mastered alot of skills that allow you not to think of anything else besides shooting your sights, to still be able to get those great times.

Think about some of the great shooters, they are not thinking of the little things when they are shooting, they are just shooting thier sights, because everything else is just a side act. The time to think about the other things is in practice.

[mildot1]

Just shoot it is great.

Unfortunately I'm not there yet.

Still lacking the muscle memory that is required to do that.

Need many more hours dry fire and good rounds down range.

I am getting better but it is a tuff road.

[Dan Burwell]

The way I like to think of it is programing "my shooter"

I have a guy in my head that is a pretty damn good shooter, so long as I leave him alone while he is doing his thing. Now he is not the brightest guy in the world (sucks at stage planning) so I have to tell him ahead of time what it is he is supposed to do. Once we work out the plan and he FULLY understands the plan at the beep I can just sit back and watch him do his thing. The only bad thing about this is sometimes I have to watch the video to see what he just did as when I really turn it over to him I don't always remember what it is he did.

This works for me, your milage may vary.

[JThompson]

Dan Burwell, on Jul 24 2009, 09:53 AM, said:

The way I like to think of it is programing "my shooter"

I have a guy in my head that is a pretty damn good shooter, so long as I leave him alone while he is doing his thing. Now he is not the brightest guy in the world (sucks at stage planning) so I have to tell him ahead of time what it is he is supposed to do. Once we work out the plan and he FULLY understands the plan at the beep I can just sit back and watch him do his thing. The only bad thing about this is sometimes I have to watch the video to see what he just did as when I really turn it over to him I don't always remember what it is he did.

This works for me, your milage may vary.

Excellent!

I'm still working on making that dude understand the plan after the buzzer goes, sometimes he gets all excited and pees on the floor like a pup.

[Dan Burwell]

JThompson, on Jul 24 2009, 11:45 AM, said:

sometimes he gets all excited and pees on the floor like a pup.

Then beat his a$$

JThompson, on Jul 24 2009, 11:45 AM, said:

I'm still working on making that dude understand the plan after the buzzer goes

It's too late when the buzzer goes off, he has to understand before hand. If you are giving him driving tips while he is driving he is probably going to pull over and make you take the wheel, you just need to trust him.

[JThompson]

Dan Burwell, on Jul 24 2009, 11:18 AM, said:

JThompson, on Jul 24 2009, 11:45 AM, said:

sometimes he gets all excited and pees on the floor like a pup.

Then beat his a$$

JThompson, on Jul 24 2009, 11:45 AM, said:

I'm still working on making that dude understand the plan after the buzzer goes

It's too late when the buzzer goes off, he has to understand before hand. If you are giving him driving tips while he is driving he is probably going to pull over and make you take the wheel, you just need to trust him.

My problem is a short term memory one... very frustrating.

[JThompson]

PAPER KILLER, on Jul 24 2009, 08:16 AM, said:

excellent post

I truly believe this also, but to add to the topic. before you can be successfull,with good times and good hits by just by shooting your sights, you must have mastered or at least muscled memoried everything else. Like You shouldn't have to think about your draw, because you have mastered it. You shouldn't have to think about your reloads, because you have mastered it. You shouldn't have to think about your footwork etc, etc, ONce you you get to the point that your talking about, you have to have mastered alot of skills that allow you not to think of anything else besides shooting your sights, to still be able to get those great times.

Think about some of the great shooters, they are not thinking of the little things when they are shooting, they are just shooting thier sights, because everything else is just a side act. The time to think about the other things is in practice.

Yes, I didn't preface the post, but without fundamentals you may as well throw rocks.

[rvb]

hmmm... I like the "where ever you are, be all there" approach. When actually shooting, the sights/dot IS all that matters. When reloading, looking the mag in and re-aligning the sights is all that matters; when opening a door, getting a grip on the knob and turning it is all that matters, etc. That all these things should "just happen" creates the opportunity for disaster to appear anytime a minor bobble occurs... but when actually engaging targets, yes, the sights/dot is all that matters as you can't let your brain be on either the previous or next task without impacting the shot.

just my 2c.

-rvb

This post has been edited by rvb: 24 July 2009 - 09:39 AM

[R A Miller]

mildot1, on Jul 24 2009, 08:21 AM, said:

[...]
I am getting better but it is a tuff road.

That's what makes it fun for me. If it was easy, I'd find something else to do.

Rick

[Mistral404]

I am an ex-navy ct, ditty chaser. i thougth i forgot all that morse code .........-, but remember: -......................-

[benos]

JThompson, on Jul 24 2009, 05:50 AM, said:

I would submit that "shoot alphas" is even to much, because if I'm shooting the sights/dot I'm already shooting alphas, so I say shoot the dot and all the other BS doesn't matter.
JT

Nice.

Shooting Alphas is an idea or result about something you might do. Shoot (see) the dot (or front sight) is the most direct activity you can do.

I have some exceptionally well shot stages that are still clearly burned into my mind. And for each one of them, the only aspect I can remember is the front sight razor sharp on the target(s). Mentally: calm, just watching.

It takes a while to get there. You have to train until you have no doubts at all about anything you need to see or do.

But like with anything, working long and hard enough to get down to the root basics pays off in the end.

It's best to start at the beginning, and eventually with enough training you'll end up back at there.
be

[benos]

This thread brings up a good topic. Examine your mental keyword/commands with this filter - Are the keywords ideas about what I hope to accomplish, or are they direct commands for things I can do?

JT's "shoot all alphas" is the perfect example "hopeful" key-phrase. "Look right at the front sight" "... and relax" are good examples of things you can directly do.
be

[kgunz11]

JT, on the shirt, a friend of mine (and a GREAT gunsmith) has a shirt for his company that says "Shut Up and Shoot". Sometimes I wonder how many times he's spoken those words to me over the years as I tried to over complicate long range rifle shooting.

[Pat Harrison]

benos, on Jul 28 2009, 09:08 PM, said:

This thread brings up a good topic. Examine your mental keyword/commands with this filter - Are the keywords ideas about what I hope to accomplish, or are they direct commands for things I can do?

JT's "shoot all alphas" is the perfect example "hopeful" key-phrase. "Look right at the front sight" "... and relax" are good examples of things you can directly do.
be

Kinda like giving your self the command to "speed up" or "slow down"
How many times do we hear at the range someone saying, "you need to slow down to get more A's."
Speed is intangible to the mind, telling yourself to speed up or slow down doesn't compute. "Look at the front sight" or "shoot the dot" are things that can be done. You can look at the front sight, but what is slow?
Also I see the phrase "muscle memory" creeping back into use. There is no such thing, muscles cannot think or remember, they are controled by the mind and you can either think your way through an action, or program it into your subconscious.

[Graham Smith]

My business partners and I have several different sayings we use when discussing projects with clients. One that is applicable here is that "The first 80% of the project will take 80% of the time and the remaining 20% will take the other 80%". Too often, project plans go right into the dumper because no matter how many times we emphasize it, the client gets all hung up with the marginal stuff, the 20%.

Too often, this is exactly what I find myself doing match after match. Not long ago, I shot a stage that was basically a run and gun. A series of small groups of targets with natural mag changes. I just moved along at a brisk pace shooting as I went - nothing else in my head but putting the sight on the target and letting everything else go. While I didn't have the best time on the stage, I shot it clean - it was glorious.

Next stage was the classifier and I needed a good score and I let my brain take over and - pppfffttt...

As to "muscle memory", Pat is basically correct - it's not the muscle that remembers, it's the brain. Or more correctly it is the conditioning of motor skills - particularly fine motor skills. If you consistently train certain actions, then those actions will work, seemingly on their own, when required. The worse thing you can do is to try and take control of those motor skills with your conscious mind because it is far less capable. Typing is a good example - speed and accuracy increase when you concentrate on the words rather than the actual act of typing.

Perhaps the catch phrase should be "Stop thinking and just shoot." Or as Chevy Chase might say, "Be the bullet."

[kgunz11]

Pat Harrison, on Jul 29 2009, 08:12 AM, said:

benos, on Jul 28 2009, 09:08 PM, said:

This thread brings up a good topic. Examine your mental keyword/commands with this filter - Are the keywords ideas about what I hope to accomplish, or are they direct commands for things I can do?

JT's "shoot all alphas" is the perfect example "hopeful" key-phrase. "Look right at the front sight" "... and relax" are good examples of things you can directly do.
be

Kinda like giving your self the command to "speed up" or "slow down"
How many times do we hear at the range someone saying, "you need to slow down to get more A's."
Speed is intangible to the mind, telling yourself to speed up or slow down doesn't compute. "Look at the front sight" or "shoot the dot" are things that can be done. You can look at the front sight, but what is slow?
Also I see the phrase "muscle memory" creeping back into use. There is no such thing, muscles cannot think or remember, they are controled by the mind and you can either think your way through an action, or program it into your subconscious.

Maybe speed is intangible to your mind, but it's not to mine. I've been shooting before and told myself to speed up and did it. And muscle memory is biomechanics, it's real, and it's a proven scientific occurrence. Maybe my mind is a little more advanced, though I highly doubt it, but I disagree with what you said in your post.

Here's a little reading for you from Wikipedia about muscle memory. http://en.wikipedia....i/Muscle_memory

[nashvillebill]

In the term muscle memory, it's a memory about muscles, not by muscles.

True the muscle does not remember, but the actions, order, amount of force and duration of action can through repetition create a memory that when called upon executes those commands without further thought.

This post has been edited by nashvillebill: 29 July 2009 - 07:08 AM

[Dan Burwell]

kgunz11, on Jul 29 2009, 09:27 AM, said:

Pat Harrison, on Jul 29 2009, 08:12 AM, said:

they are controled by the mind and you can either think your way through an action, or program it into your subconscious.

And muscle memory is biomechanics, it's real, and it's a proven scientific occurrence. Maybe my mind is a little more advanced, though I highly doubt it, but I disagree with what you said in your post.

Here's a little reading for you from Wikipedia about muscle memory. http://en.wikipedia....i/Muscle_memory

Pat is correct and your wiki article agree with him, maybe you just didn't see the trees through the forsest but here are the copied highlights of the article

Quote

Even though the process is really brain-muscle memory or motor memory, the colloquial expression "muscle memory" is commonly used.

Quote

Muscle memory is fashioned over time through repetition of a given suite of motor skills and the ability through brain activity to inculcate and instill it such that they become automatic. To the beginner, activities such as brushing the teeth, combing the hair, or even driving a vehicle are not as easy as they look. As one reinforces those movements through repetition, the neural system learns those fine and gross motor skills to the degree that one no longer needs to think about them, but merely to react and perform appropriately.

This what I was getting at with my posts, I find I shoot much better when I ditch everything and let my subconscious mind (my shooter) control the show. I have practiced enough that the neural pathways have formed and I no longer have to have consciuos control over them while I am shooting a stage. Now that doesn't mean I don't need to constantly tune those pathways for better performance, that is why I continue to practice.

to me this is the essence of practice; programing subconscious skills.

[Pat Harrison]

From Wkipedia:

Quote

When an active person repeatedly trains movement, often of the same activity, in an effort to stimulate the mind’s adaptation process, the outcome is to induce physiological changes which attain increased levels of accuracy through repetition. Even though the process is really brain-muscle memory or motor memory, the colloquial expression "muscle memory" is commonly used.

Same thing I said, it has little to do with the muscles and more with the brains control relationship with the muscles. I'm pointing out that it is a bad term that leads people to think that merely repeated motions is all thats required to train for an accurate repeated motion.
As for the speed issue, yup, you will speed up and yup you will slow down, but to what degree? Did it really help your performance, how were your points in relation to the change in speed? How much do you speed up? How much do you slow down? It's a rough command at best. Can you tell youself to shoot splits exactly .14 slower? Or .05 faster? If you run from box A to box B in 2.75 seconds, can you tell yourself to do it in 2.5 seconds? Or just "run faster."
What is time?
Visually you can call your shots, define the acceptablility of each shot depending on how fast you need to go, and actually see the sights. You cannot see, feel, hear, smell or touch time. It's passing is relative and a perception, unless you stop to look at your watch while shooting. This may work in some slow fire forms of shooting like PPC or long range rifle, but not in high speed sports like IPSC or steel shooting.

[Pat Harrison]

Dan Burwell, on Jul 29 2009, 10:32 AM, said:

[
to me this is the essence of practice; programing subconscious skills.

Bingo!

[kgunz11]

OK, so you agree with the article, which is about muscle memory, but Pat said muscle memory doesn't exist.

Quote

Also I see the phrase "muscle memory" creeping back into use. There is no such thing, muscles cannot think or remember

I disagree that muscle memory does not exist, I think it does and the article confirms that. Regardless of rather or not the brain controls the activity, it is still called muscle memory. The argument that the muscle cannot remember something I'm not even going to get into. You can say that the phrase "muscle memory" is a poor title for what is happening, but you cannot say what we commonly refer to as "muscle memory" does not exist. Well I guess you can, you just did.

It's about like the heart, people often say "their heart led them" or that it's broken or something. We know the heart can't talk, lead/guide/direct someone, but it's how we refer to it.

[Pat Harrison]

Muscle memory does not exist, it is a colloquial term used to describe the result of a repetitive training cycle that harmonizes the subconscious control over motions. A muscle does two things and two things only, contract and relax...that's it. Everything else comes from the mind.
But I guess as long as it makes you happy, keep using it.

[JThompson]

Shoot the Dot guys.

This post has been edited by JThompson: 29 July 2009 - 08:02 AM

[davecutts]

K.I.S.S.