[Spray_N_Prey]

It was suggested to me once that with me using such a light spring for my Glocks (11 lb ISMI) in both production and limited major, that it could be causing the gun to move before the bullet comes out of the barrel. Is this true? I am using 147 grain bullet for production and 180 grain for limited.


P.S. I am not trying to put blame on my problems (jerking the trigger) on this, I just wonder if this also could contribute to the problem. I did notice on my 1911 that it was still to the right some, it wasn't nearly as bad as with my glocks.

This post has been edited by Spray_N_Prey: 16 July 2009 - 05:52 PM

[Duane Thomas]

The gun DOES move before the bullet leaves the barrel. No, it's not your problem.

[Spray_N_Prey]

Duane, I have been dry firing like a madman - and I have found a sweet spot in my trigger finger tip that keeps the gun from moving at pressing the trigger fast. I will keep trying this and was wondering if instead of just dry firing, if it would help taking a .22 pistol out and shooting some slow fire with this also? I just need to beat it in my head to do this when i'm out at the range and not just sitting in my house.

[Flexmoney]

If the recoil spring is light, relative to the striker spring, then the gun can come out of battery just by pulling the trigger.

[SA Friday]

Over the last four years I've done quite a bit of work on Glocks for production and limited division. I am NOT a huge fan of using anything lighter than a 13lb recoil spring in any glock, period. It's just too damned easy to light off a round out of battery. The recoil spring and the striker spring work against each other. Too light a recoil spring and too heavy a striker spring and your glocks may actually come out of battery during trigger pull. If this happens, you can have an OOB discharge and throw hot burning gasses and brass frag out the top and right side of the slide/chamber.

I could not get any of my glocks: 17, 34, 35, or 24 to run with an 11lb recoil spring with either an OEM or the lighter Wolfe competition 4lb striker spring without the chamber unlocking during trigger pull. I know some have ran this set-up, but I will not and don't recommend it. In my G24, with a drop-in KKM barrel, the lock up is tighter and it requires a 15lb recoil spring to reliably lock up.

Do yourself a huge favor and take the 11lb spring out of your glocks and chuck them in the trash. Replace them with heavier springs. Then practice your stance, grip, and trigger pull. The lighter spring really isn't going to help you in these areas. It might only mask them a little.

[Duane Thomas]

Quote

If the recoil spring is light, relative to the striker spring, then the gun can come out of battery just by pulling the trigger.

True. But having the barrel tilt up when he pulls the trigger isn't going to be the source of his low/right problem.

[Duane Thomas]

Quote

I will keep trying this and was wondering if instead of just dry firing, if it would help taking a .22 pistol out and shooting some slow fire with this also?

I think the .22 conversion units, and .22s in general, are great for low cost live fire practice. I'm not convinced they're that great for curing a flinch. I know that "Go out and shoot a .22" is one of the stock pieces of advice in a situation like this, and no one ever agrees with what I'm about to say - I'm sure this time will be no exception - but what I've found works for me is to do some shooting with a gun that has considerably MORE recoil than what I normally fire. Whenever I find myself whining about the recoil level of my 9mm, it does me a lot of good to go out and do some shooting with a .45 loaded with full-power hardball. When I shot .45 a lot and found myself thinking that was a gun with real recoil, I'd go take my 4" Model 29, load it up with some .44 Magnum bear busters and fire a few cylindersful. After that, when I came back the the .45 it was like, "Recoil? WHAT recoil?" Take that for what it's worth. That may just be MY mind's idiosyncratic way of working. Your mileage may WIDELY vary.

In no way is firing a .22 - or anything else, for that matter - a substitute for dry fire practice.

[Spray_N_Prey]

yeah a friend of mine who is very, very accurate (5" groups at 40 yards freestyle) told me he will load up some .357 magnum's that are smokin' hot and it will help with the flinch thing. He is a big believer of shooting something really hot to help with lower recoil. I just hate to think that i'm flinching because of recoil. I shoot 9, 40 and 45 and thought recoil never really bothered me.

[SA Friday]

Spray_N_Prey, on Jul 16 2009, 10:25 PM, said:

yeah a friend of mine who is very, very accurate (5" groups at 40 yards freestyle) told me he will load up some .357 magnum's that are smokin' hot and it will help with the flinch thing. He is a big believer of shooting something really hot to help with lower recoil. I just hate to think that i'm flinching because of recoil. I shoot 9, 40 and 45 and thought recoil never really bothered me.

Ya, but the mind is a truely F'ed up thing. Sometimes we all have to relearn what we thought we knew.

[Duane Thomas]

Even for the truly hardcore and experienced, it's next to impossible to not develop at least a bit of a flinch if we do all our practice with live ammo. That's where dry fire is invaluable. I dry fire every day, and I can't really point to anything else I do that's as valuable to my skill level as that.

[Flexmoney]

Duane Thomas, on Jul 16 2009, 10:21 PM, said:

Quote

If the recoil spring is light, relative to the striker spring, then the gun can come out of battery just by pulling the trigger.

True. But having the barrel tilt up when he pulls the trigger isn't going to be the source of his low/right problem.

True, but....I don't care. He needs more spring.


But...yeah...back on topic.

Low right? Must be a left-hander?

S-n-P...you have the common flinch. Accept it. Then deal with it. (you will have to search for "low left", however)

[Duane Thomas]

Quote

True, but....I don't care. He needs more spring.

Undoubtably so.

[USMCRET]

You might try changing bullet weights. You have to find a combination that works for you with your gun. I have glocks that have over 100,000 through them and I have shot 11lb recoil spring in them and have never had an issue. In the 40's I use 13lb but it is according to the load I am shooting. In the 9's I us 115gr because of the snapper load and I have no lagging which work for my style. When I shoot 147's I have an issue of shooting 3's of d's because of lagging time. Try different loads with different springs until you find a combo that works for you

Mike

[Spray_N_Prey]

USMCRET, on Jul 17 2009, 09:58 AM, said:

You might try changing bullet weights. You have to find a combination that works for you with your gun. I have glocks that have over 100,000 through them and I have shot 11lb recoil spring in them and have never had an issue. In the 40's I use 13lb but it is according to the load I am shooting. In the 9's I us 115gr because of the snapper load and I have no lagging which work for my style. When I shoot 147's I have an issue of shooting 3's of d's because of lagging time. Try different loads with different springs until you find a combo that works for you

Mike

but if you have your stance, grip correct should this matter?

I thought (and could be wrong) that that's called timing your shots and therefor your not seeing your sights correctly, you've just got it timed right when the gun recoils to "double tap". Is this correct?

I'm just guessing here, but if Brian Enos or Duane or Flexmoney pick up any gun with any spring / bullet combo they aren't going to have this problem because they've got everything down correctly. Please correct me if i'm wrong.

[USMCRET]

Spray_N_Prey, on Jul 17 2009, 01:33 PM, said:

USMCRET, on Jul 17 2009, 09:58 AM, said:

You might try changing bullet weights. You have to find a combination that works for you with your gun. I have glocks that have over 100,000 through them and I have shot 11lb recoil spring in them and have never had an issue. In the 40's I use 13lb but it is according to the load I am shooting. In the 9's I us 115gr because of the snapper load and I have no lagging which work for my style. When I shoot 147's I have an issue of shooting 3's of d's because of lagging time. Try different loads with different springs until you find a combo that works for you

Mike

but if you have your stance, grip correct should this matter?

I thought (and could be wrong) that that's called timing your shots and therefor your not seeing your sights correctly, you've just got it timed right when the gun recoils to "double tap". Is this correct?

I'm just guessing here, but if Brian Enos or Duane or Flexmoney pick up any gun with any spring / bullet combo they aren't going to have this problem because they've got everything down correctly. Please correct me if i'm wrong.

Yes it is timing but if I pick up a 45 with the bullet (230gr) moving at 750FPS and snap it around like I do a 9MM (115gr) moving at 1100 FPS or like my open gun moving at 1300 FPS it can cause issues. I have to adjust my timing and splits. Yes anyone could pick up a gun and know what they are shooting and make adjustments and not have a problem. Do it all the time.
Just giving you something else to look at.

[benos]

Spray_N_Prey, on Jul 16 2009, 09:25 PM, said:

I just hate to think that i'm flinching because of recoil.

I wouldn't hate myself for that. Flinching is a natural reaction to what's akin to having a firecracker go off in front of your face every time you pull the trigger. And a natural reaction that must be faced, understood, and worked through by all shooters, if they want to achieve a consistent, high skill level.

[eric nielsen]

I prefer NOT to post right after Brian because his name on a thread brings a lot more eyes onto a topic. But...

Here's a classic by TGO that should be required reading:

http://www.robleatha...the%20range.htm

[Duane Thomas]

Quote

I thought (and could be wrong) that that's called timing your shots and therefor your not seeing your sights correctly, you've just got it timed right when the gun recoils to "double tap". Is this correct?

No, that's not correct. You can time the gun so that it fires just as it returns to the correct position because you're seeing your sights move correctly up and then down, not instead of.

[Spray_N_Prey]

eric nielsen, on Jul 17 2009, 04:48 PM, said:

I prefer NOT to post right after Brian because his name on a thread brings a lot more eyes onto a topic. But...

Here's a classic by TGO that should be required reading:

http://www.robleatha...the%20range.htm

hehe there should be a flag at sub-forum with an all-seeing eye or something when BE has posted in a thread. I tend to agree more people will be reading your thread when the man speaks.

That is an excellent link Eric, It seems like that is always happening to me. Sights dead on pull trigger bullet goes nowhere close.

[Duane Thomas]

Misses are usually a failure of trigger control at the last moment, not a failure of sight alignment at the beginning. As you're building your ability to shoot accurately, forcus on your trigger control to start. There will eventually come a time in your shooting, however, that the trigger control is so solid that you can forget about it, and at that point you turn the trigger control over to the subconscious mind, and all your conscious attention goes toward watching the sights. At that point you can sit back, enjoy the dance of the sights, and just shoot.