[JSeavers]

A few months ago I bought a Dillon RT1200 trimmer to trim 5.56 and 7.62 military brass.

The 5.56 brass trimming went well and I trimmed a few thousand pieces without a problem.

When I tried to trim the 7.62 brass, the brass required a little effort to push up into the trim die. I FL resized the brass using a .308 die set from RCBS.
I measured the case mouth ID after resizing and measured about .305". After pushing the case up into the trim die the mouth ID was reduced to about .300"

When trying to insert a boat tail bullet the case swaged out noticeably to accept the bullet, and it took a lot of effort to seat the bullet.

My question is: should the trim die reduce the ID of the case that much? I have been using this .308 die set for quite a few years, and I think there is nothing wrong with it.

TIA

[dillon]

First, be aware the Dillon trim die full length resizes at the same time it trims, so be sure to lube your brass prior to trimming.
Next, the Dillon trim die is cut to size die dimensions. All size dies oversize the neck, then rely on an expander ball to open the neck to a uniform inside diameter as it is withdrawn from the case. If using a flat base bullet, be sure to chamfer the case mouth, and perhaps run the brass through a size die enough to push the expander ball thru the neck. Boattail bullets don't usually require this.

[JSeavers]

I think I understand what you are saying. As I see it there is no way to use an expander ball and trim at the same time, so I might as well continue FL sizing with my RCBS dies and ream out the trim die to allow a neck ID of .305". Or is there another die that would work for me?

As I said the 5.56 cases I trimmed didn't require an excessive amount of effort to push into the trim die to trim, but I haven't checked the bullet fit in them yet.

I now have a bunch of .308 cases that are primed and undersized in the neck. Any suggestions on the easiest way to get the neck back in specs?

This post has been edited by JSeavers: 14 July 2009 - 12:23 PM

[charliez]

JSeavers, on Jul 14 2009, 12:21 PM, said:

I think I understand what you are saying. As I see it there is no way to use an expander ball and trim at the same time, so I might as well continue FL sizing with my RCBS dies and ream out the trim die to allow a neck ID of .305". Or is there another die that would work for me?

As I said the 5.56 cases I trimmed didn't require an excessive amount of effort to push into the trim die to trim, but I haven't checked the bullet fit in them yet.

I now have a bunch of .308 cases that are primed and undersized in the neck. Any suggestions on the easiest way to get the neck back in specs?

Interesting, I just purchased the RT 1200 as well. The sizing approach of the trim die bothers me. The reason is I only want the RT1200 to trim as I've just decapped and FL size it in station 1 (which stretches the case). If the RT1200 sizes the neck smaller than specs, then the neck will have to be resized again, which stretches the neck, and needs to be trimmed, and resized, and trimmed ... and repeat ... this is not good

I was wondering about this as I test fitted my 308 cases into the trim Die, and it would not fit, which surprised me as I was not expecting it to be so tight.

Short of reaming out the trim die is there a better way to do this (other than returning the RT1200 and looking at other case trimmers).

ETA: I think the reasoning to make it tight is to hold the case in place while the trimming is performed (otherwise the case would spin), but that is easily performed on the case body vs. sizing the neck.

A way to work around the endless trimming is to adjust the trimming a bit shorter such that the neck sizing after the trim ends up stretching the case to the right length.

This post has been edited by charliez: 15 July 2009 - 06:06 AM

[Canuck223]

As I always used boat tailed bullets, I never found the resizing of the neck to be a problem.

However, since i retumbled the cases in fresh corn cob media to get rid of the case lube, I needed to make sure the flash holes were clear.

My solution was to get a Lee Collet die, and polish the mandrel just a bit undersize. I set the die up in my loading toolhead to slightly open up the mouth and clear the flash hole, but not to make contact wit the neck of the case.

[charliez]

So then the toolheads are setup as follows (for my 650, 5 stations):

Toolhead 1:
- Universal decap (don't want to size anything yet to avoid working the brass too much)
- RT1200 trim (and FL sizing), adjusting the trim a bit shorter than spec anticipating stretching by the resizing die
- Neck resizing die with expander ball

Tumble to clean lube (or not)

Toolhead 2:
- Universal decap (to clear flash hole of debris)
- Powder drop
- Powder check
- Bullet seater
- Crimper (if any)

Alternately, in Toolhead 1, you can set the RT1200 to trim to spec, and then use the RCBS X sizing die (it prevents the case from stretching).

This post has been edited by charliez: 15 July 2009 - 08:27 PM

[cheryl]

I also experienced the too small case neck with 308's. I called and was told it was designed that way. I agree, they probably had to get a good hold on the case neck to hold it against the trimmer. If you do the body, then you get into the lube requirement, and chips sticking in the die, and all other sorts of issues.

I sent mine back because of the issues of the neck crushing, or the bullet not being straight because it is used to acually resize the neck. Both military ball and Sierra's had several necks colapse when seating the bullet.

I'm also thinking this might be a non issue with .223, the necks are a lot thinner and will "resize" with very little strain?

I never got around to checking, but if the bullet is actually resizing the neck when it's being seated, I'm thinking the chances of the bullet being crooked are pretty high?

My solution, get a Giraud. 2 of us went together, $246 each. Problem solved.

[charliez]

I looked at the Giraud, and decided the Dillon would provide more automation (each cycle of the press yields one prepped case). I wasn't expecting the neck resizing in addition to case body. I'll try setting up the RT1200 this weekend and see how it goes. It's a shame though, with a little redesign in the trim die the RT1200 would be great.

[dillon]

Having just finished loading several hundred rounds of .308 for the RM3-gun match, using a 150 grain flat-based bullet, I set up an RL-450 powder die with a 30 M-1 Carbine expander funnel between the powder drop and bullet seating stations to flare the case mouth slightly. I was loading Remington 150 PSPCL bullets, which have a flat base, but are non-magnetic.

[JSeavers]

It's off to the local machinist/magician/metal artist to see what he can do...

Stay tuned..

[JSeavers]

He said the metal is too hard to work with( I shouldda thought about that). This afternoon we are going to talk about making a simple trim die that will do nothing but trim that works with the 1200 trimmer.

Stay tuned for chapter two...

[charliez]

JSeavers, on Jul 16 2009, 11:37 AM, said:

He said the metal is too hard to work with( I shouldda thought about that). This afternoon we are going to talk about making a simple trim die that will do nothing but trim that works with the 1200 trimmer.

Stay tuned for chapter two...

I was thinking of the same thing, but only slightly enlarge the neck portion (and leave the case body alone), was thinking of using the dremel tool actually with some abrasive barrel lapping compund.

If you end up making a trim die, it might be worth offering this to the general public (i.e. us here), I'd buy one each for 223 Win, 308 Win, and 300 WSM, or at least let us know what the cost is per die.

This post has been edited by charliez: 16 July 2009 - 06:58 PM

[charliez]

dillon, on Jul 16 2009, 09:00 AM, said:

Having just finished loading several hundred rounds of .308 for the RM3-gun match, using a 150 grain flat-based bullet, I set up an RL-450 powder die with a 30 M-1 Carbine expander funnel between the powder drop and bullet seating stations to flare the case mouth slightly. I was loading Remington 150 PSPCL bullets, which have a flat base, but are non-magnetic.

The issue is not the lack of flare with non boat tail bullets, but rather the neck ID being too small and creating sufficient friction (whether boat tail bullet or not) to collapse the neck during bullet seating. The neck should have never been sized, that small modification in the trim die design would make the RT1200 as perfect as it can be IMHO.

[JSeavers]

I'm having a guy make me a trim die that is only snug on the neck on a representative sample of 7.62 x 51 brass. I want to be able to push the brass into the die with only thumb pressure. And I'm expecting all brass necks to possibly have a different wall thickness, so I don't expect all the brass to be exactly the same. I do expect to be able to work with the compression if the die reduces an occasional piece on occasion. He said it would be a couple of days.

I'm still new to this Dillon equipment, and I'm not really trying to reinvent the wheel here, but I still don't see the reason for making a combo die. I can see the reason for a fl die, or a trim die, but the reason for making of a combo die still eludes me.

Anyhow, in a few days I'll see if I wasted my money.

This post has been edited by JSeavers: 16 July 2009 - 07:21 PM

[charliez]

JSeavers, on Jul 16 2009, 07:20 PM, said:

Anyhow, in a few days I'll see if I wasted my money.

Anything to report yet? Been a few days

[JSeavers]

I went to see him on Wednesday, he still hadn't started on it. But maybe I moved it up a little on his list. I'll see him again tomorrow...

[JSeavers]

Machinist went on vacation, now I need to wait a week until he gets back.

[Sandro]

JSeavers, on Jul 16 2009, 11:37 AM, said:

He said the metal is too hard to work with( I shouldda thought about that). This afternoon we are going to talk about making a simple trim die that will do nothing but trim that works with the 1200 trimmer.

Stay tuned for chapter two...

well, I guess I am not alone. had the same problem with too much tension on 223 and 308. If I could find someone to open the neck a few 0.000 would be a good option as well.

[Derek45]

I run a REDDING NECK SIZER in the station after the 1200B.

[bigsaxdog]

dillon, on Jul 14 2009, 07:51 PM, said:

First, be aware the Dillon trim die full length resizes at the same time it trims, so be sure to lube your brass prior to trimming.
Next, the Dillon trim die is cut to size die dimensions. All size dies oversize the neck, then rely on an expander ball to open the neck to a uniform inside diameter as it is withdrawn from the case. If using a flat base bullet, be sure to chamfer the case mouth, and perhaps run the brass through a size die enough to push the expander ball thru the neck. Boattail bullets don't usually require this.

i have a dillon .223 die for my dillon trimmer that leaves the necks .244, pretty much perfect for LC brass, kinda tight for WW or RP, but who cares about them..... makes killer 75/77gr. loads. how come sandro's die leaves his necks .242, too tight to load correctly right out of the trimmer? i guess i just got a perfect die from a worn reamer? i have a 30-06 die also, for my M-1 loads. haven't measured them, but the loads work great, so.....trying to get a die opened up .002 ain't gonna be an easy thing to do. i think you're gonna have to have a pretty good grinding set-up on a very accurate lathe, and the set-up/indication process is gonna be hard as hell. i'd be very wary of trying to have somebody open it up as a project, it ain't gonna be an easy thing to do......

[bigsaxdog]

Derek45, on Jul 26 2009, 02:04 AM, said:

I run a REDDING NECK SIZER in the station after the 1200B.

i'm gonna chime in here, and sound like a know it all, but what the hell, that's what this forum's for, right?....... i dunno how you get accurate headspace from that set-up, the tool head moves too much, and even if you lock the thing, the linkage ain't all that accurate, IMO. you gotta size w/a single stage, and the shell plate locking to the bottom of the die, then you get accurate headspace. w/redding variable shellplates, you can get perfect headspace for your gun every time. then you go to the progressive......my $.02......

[Derek45]

Well.....every time I crank the handle, I get a 1.75" resized, de-capped and trimmed 5.56 case that passes the case gauge.

It works very well for me.

I can process 1000 in one night....without sore tired fingers.

[bigsaxdog]

duder, i 'm just being argumentative......if your stuff works, go blast off. 1.75 is nice, but the real voodoo is in the distance from the datum line to the base of the case.........headspace........controlling that, and you stick the case in so the bullet is centered in the bore. why do you think the benchrest guys don't even wanna size the body, just the neck on cases they fire repeatedly. cause' they fit the chamber perfectly centered. you can do this pretty good w/an AR if you get the technique right. yeah, it'll go bang when loose, but accuracy is gonna suffer. get it too loose, and bad stuff happens. i have some dies that are so short, it's crazy. they size the case way too much, push the shoulder way back...... i think manufacturers do this on purpose so nobody gets brass too long and w/a high primer, slamfires, and then sues the manufacturers. my way, you set the headspace perfect for your gun, works every time. AR bolts and bolt stubs wear over time, headspace gets longer. old school way was to back off the die a bit, sizing to where you wanted, but you're still dependant on the linkage, and that ain't always repeatable. loading rifle ain't anything like loading straight wall pistol, and big numbers on a progressive press don't really translate. iagain, my $.02.......rant off

This post has been edited by bigsaxdog: 26 July 2009 - 03:29 AM

[Chills1994]

@ Derek... gave up on the Possum Hollow Cutters, eh?

I was over at ExtremeShot's house last night, helping him get some things dialed in for .223 reloading. I set up my Possum Hollow Cutter in his drill press. It was set to trim to 1.74" for future use with the RCBS X-sizer die. If he can get his .223 brass back (that's where the magic marker striping thing will come in real handy), then all he should have to do is run it through the X-die. Yay! No more trimming.

I initially ran a bunch of brass through a Dillon .223 full length resizing/decapping die, and pushed the shoulders back 2 thousandths. That brass was then able to case gauge alright, after that.

Benchrest shooters do what they do (just neck resizing) because their chambers are so tight, for starters. And they know where their brass has come from... from themselves, they know its pedigree. It's not just some scrap that they picked up off the range floor. It's not like their brass has been shot from loosely chambered AR's or machinegun's (M249 SAW). And lastly, their ammo doesn't have to run 100% in a very short period of time. I'd be willing to bet that some of them do rely on that bolt handle to cam (to force) their rounds into place.

[Chills1994]

As far as the Dillon's toolhead having too much play, slop, or "float" in it, I drilled and tapped a few of my 650 tool heads for set screws, it takes out the up and down play. And you get more consistent numbers once the shellplate is completely full of cases too.