[Ontarget]

Has anyone participated in non-competitive "alternative" style IDPA Matches? The one I know of in Pennsylvania is described as "run and gun IPSC" style match using IDPA rules. (Mostly this means high round count stages.) Some other possibilites: an all .22 caliber match, with draw either from holster or low ready. Or a pistol caliber carbine match. What "alternative style" IDPA matches have you participated in or do you think would be possible? Thank you.

[J-Ho]

If you don't want to play by the rules then just about anything is possible. (as long as it's done safely) I shoot a IDPA ish 3 gun match. The same club runs an IDPA ish pistol match. They just drop some of the rules that the club doesn't like. As long as it's club level and the rules are consistent, I don't see a problem.

[Duane Thomas]

Any time I hear a club or range is running "IDPA type" matches, what you get, at least in my experience, is someone's lame idea of what IDPA is, or should be. Almost always, if not invariably, from someone who's never fired IDPA. I'll stick with the real thing, thanks.

[Ontarget]

Mainly I'm referring to IDPA Clubs that want to try a non-sactioned event.

[Jim Norman]

IF you make the rules known in advance AND you adhere to them regardless (Excepting safety) then it is all good. I don't care what we have to do as long as we know what that is. Be CLEAR as to what you expect your customers to do and what you will and will not allow for various situations. TELL us what equipment is OK and what is NOT BEFORE we get to your match. I am good with this. Tell me after I break your rule what the rule I broke was and we are not going to get along. Tell me my gun won't fit your idea of a match AFTER you took my money and I drove 300 miles to shoot your match and we won't get along.

Jim

[Jim Watson]

Quote

They just drop some of the rules that the club doesn't like. As long as it's club level and the rules are consistent, I don't see a problem.

The main problem I see with outlaw "style" matches, whether IDPA "style" or IPSC "style" where the organizer doesn't want to play by the rules, is that somebody will get used to the local version and collect a lot of penalties when he tries the real thing. Such people are not usually real understanding about why they are now getting penalized for what they do routinely at home.

[Steve J]

Use the rules or don't call it IDPA.

[Chills1994]

@ Jim Watson... all I can say about your "real thing" answer is...well... the rulebooks for both organizations are easily accessible via the web, downloadable, and printable. And if one is going to a bigger major match for either organization, they have to be members to attend and at least with IDPA you have to be classified. If you get dinged a lot for doing something in a real match, well, that's your problem. You bought a membership and chances are good each HQ sent you the latest copies of their respective rulebooks. Caveat emptor.

Technically, if it is an IDPA affiliated club, IIRC, it has to run at least for real, bona fide 6 IDPA matches a year. And I think one of those has to be a classifier match.

If it is a USPSA club and they are running an "IPSC lite" match, then all they are doing is cheating USPSA HQ......

I will say this though about IDPA, the time plus scoring makes it real easy to figure out how you matched up among your squadmates as you leave the stage. No calculator required.

This post has been edited by Chills1994: 11 July 2009 - 04:52 PM

[Strick]

We were having a discussion about a hybrid match in the squad I was shooting in today. It was at an IDPA monthly match. There is nothing wrong with the idea of setting up hybrid style matches as long as you don't call them IDPA or IPSC matches and the rules are known. There is no reason why you can you only have IPSC or IDPA, maybe somebody will come up with a hybrid type match that eventually is the best thing going. For the guys enjoy IDPA matches, like myself, where would be if somebody didn't want to start a new "game" and tweak the rules of IPSC?

[Shootingirons45]

There used to be 2 clubs in our area that ran what they called "fun matches". Basically they used IDPA scoring, USPSA targets. The rules..well, they made them up as they went for the most part. The weapons could be loaded up to capacity..as in Glock 17/34's using 17 rd mags. The COF's were purely USPSA with some old retro shooting boxes.
I shot these matches for a while as there wasn't any other matches to attend. The person that stated above about "what you do there is what you'll o in a USPSA/IDPA match" was right. In the end, I started shooting by Production/SSP rules. I used the match as a learning tool and nothing more..pure trigger time. I would say that these outlaw matches rob both USPSA and IDPA. In the end one club went and affiliated with USPSA and the other folded.

[DaG]

We run "special" (IDIPSC)matches from time to time. IDPA targets,scoring,equipment restrictions,(holster and mag pouch positions) 10 rd mags but use USPSA rules. It's a helluva lot of fun.
DaG

[Jim Watson]

Chills, all I can say is that reading is not doing; and it is hard to get a lot of people to read the rules in the first place.

[Duane Thomas]

Quote

For the guys enjoy IDPA matches, like myself, where would be if somebody didn't want to start a new "game" and tweak the rules of IPSC?

Yeah, but they didn't call it "IPSC" when they did it.

[Joe4d]

Duane Thomas, on Jul 12 2009, 12:59 AM, said:

Quote

For the guys enjoy IDPA matches, like myself, where would be if somebody didn't want to start a new "game" and tweak the rules of IPSC?

Yeah, but they didn't call it "IPSC" when they did it.

If you want to hold a shooting match and customers keep coming that's great, The more the merrier and variety is the spice of life. Using other organizations names and getting benefit from their name recognition is basically trademark infringement and probably not legal especially if you are charging an entry fee.

[kaiserb]

Steve J, on Jul 11 2009, 06:38 PM, said:

Use the rules or don't call it IDPA.

+1 I shot a match recently where the best solution was to run dry in the open and move to the next shooting station (normally a procedural). However the MD had waived the "run dry in the open rule" for certain stages. In my opinion it was annoying to try and remember what stages used the alternate rules.

[solaritx]

I occasionally run a non-IDPA match, but we declare it before hand. We shoot every wed night and the first Sat of the month. We declare a non-IDPA match usually because of one of the following:

1) on our weekly wed night match, we shoot at an outdoor range in the country west of Houston, and it does take shooters awhile to get there. If we have a rain shower and we still want to shoot, then we shoot steel or at least more steel than IDPA rules allow. This way, at least we can still shoot after a long drive getting there.

2) occasionally we use a higher No-Shoot to shoot ratio than IDPA allows. Often it's a one threat holding one no-shoot. Occasionally a much larger number of no-shoots with one or two shoots (club, plane, bus, eating out, etc scenarios) Fun but not IDPA legal.

Rest of the rules, we leave in place.

Garry

[freeidaho]

If y'all have written your own rulebook and are not using IDPA or IPSC or USPA in your advertising, then great, have fun, or even copyright your new sport.

But as soon as you use those registered trademarks or refer to one of their rulebooks for conflict resolution, y'all are stealing from them.

kr

[RickB]

We run shotgun and rifle/carbine side stages, after our IDPA pistol matches. We utilize as much of the rule book as is practical for long guns. One year, we hosted a full-blown three-gun match, with rifle and shotgun stages the day after our sanctioned match. We did have to make up some of the rules, but with the intent of preserving the "spirit" of IDPA, rather than trying not to (which seems to be the point of most alternatives). We've hosted a couple of rimfire matches that also stuck pretty close to the rules, except for the introduction of some small steel chickens as targets. I've MD'd an annual single stack match that is sort of a hodgepodge of IDPA and USPSA rules, using IDPAish scoring and USPSAish courses of fire, with the intent of attracting shooters of both sports, but not with the goal of ignoring a specific set of rules, but rather trying to blend them together in a way that won't confuse anyone too much.

[solaritx]

Ken,

Not sure what you mean by "stealing from them"? In our case, the IDPA rules clearly state that a club only has to hold 6 matches per year. In our case, we typically hold 5 per month. This means that instead of having close to 60 yearly IDPA matches, we could stop in early Feb, but we don't. We do occasionally have a fun "non-IDPA" match.

When we hold a "non-IDPA" match, we notify shooters so they know exactly what they will be shooting. Even with that, each of our shooters must become IDPA members after shooting with us once independent of IDPA match or fun match. So we occasionally have a few more no-shoots or steel than IDPA allows, how is that stealing? IDPA does not get money from the club but rather from individual membership. As long as the affiliated club continues to insist that those that shoot these events are IDPA members, isn't IDPA still getting their money?

Are you saying that unless it's an official IDPA match, a club can not use the IDPA rulebook or IDPA targets or anything IDPA or it's stealing from IDPA? Often these "fun" matches are where new shooters also come and get interested in the sport and then become IDPA members?

I agree that sanctioned IDPA matches and regular IDPA matches must be run by IDPA rules but I don't believe that every shooting event that uses IDPA targets or IDPA scoring or generally uses most of the IDPA rules to have fun and introduce shooters to our sport is stealing from IDPA. But that's just me.

Garry

[Duane Thomas]

I believe the thrust of the argument here is against clubs or ranges that don't adhere to the Rule Book at all - probably because they're never read or even seen it - while still advertising their matches as "IDPA". Clubs that run IDPA matches per the Rule Book but occasionally offer something different, while letting everyone know ahead of time that's what they're doing, are a completely different matter.

[DanD23]

One thing I would like to try is a IDPA match with .22 only for juniors to run. I have a son that would love to shoot, but can't quite handle the recoil of even a 9mm right now. Having something where you could shoot with your buckmark or similar would be a great way to get some younger shooters in to the sport. Maybe a once a year shoot after a regular shoot type thing.

[tohlmann]

DanD23, on Jul 17 2009, 03:21 PM, said:

One thing I would like to try is a IDPA match with .22 only for juniors to run. I have a son that would love to shoot, but can't quite handle the recoil of even a 9mm right now. Having something where you could shoot with your buckmark or similar would be a great way to get some younger shooters in to the sport. Maybe a once a year shoot after a regular shoot type thing.

At local matches there's no reason he couldn't shoot the Buck Mark. I would be very surprised if anyone complained. He doesn't have to have other Juniors to shoot against because he'll be trying to out do you.

[Steve J]

tohlmann, on Jul 17 2009, 05:45 PM, said:

DanD23, on Jul 17 2009, 03:21 PM, said:

One thing I would like to try is a IDPA match with .22 only for juniors to run. I have a son that would love to shoot, but can't quite handle the recoil of even a 9mm right now. Having something where you could shoot with your buckmark or similar would be a great way to get some younger shooters in to the sport. Maybe a once a year shoot after a regular shoot type thing.

At local matches there's no reason he couldn't shoot the Buck Mark. I would be very surprised if anyone complained. He doesn't have to have other Juniors to shoot against because he'll be trying to out do you.

That's a big no-go if reactive steel targets are being used, especially if they are used to trigger moving targets. We have those every match. Rimfire will not knock them down and tend to bounce back at the shooter and others, whereas full power rounds flatten and fall. You have to be able to handle a 9mm handgun to shoot any match at our club. IDPA does have a power factor floor you know. The rules apply to local club matches too.

[Suches]

I know folks who primarily shoot IDPA, and shoot IPSC occasionally "IDPA-style." This just means they wear concealment, respect cover, reload per-IDPA rules, etc. They have a literal blast because they're running and gunning 30-50 rounds instead of max 18, even though they have no chance of winning. Scoring can be IDPA or IPSC--who cares? A 3-gun run the same way sounds like a blast, too. I think this is all that's meant by "alternative IDPA." It sounds like fun and shouldn't be controversial at all.

[tohlmann]

Steve J, on Jul 17 2009, 06:25 PM, said:

tohlmann, on Jul 17 2009, 05:45 PM, said:

DanD23, on Jul 17 2009, 03:21 PM, said:

One thing I would like to try is a IDPA match with .22 only for juniors to run. I have a son that would love to shoot, but can't quite handle the recoil of even a 9mm right now. Having something where you could shoot with your buckmark or similar would be a great way to get some younger shooters in to the sport. Maybe a once a year shoot after a regular shoot type thing.

At local matches there's no reason he couldn't shoot the Buck Mark. I would be very surprised if anyone complained. He doesn't have to have other Juniors to shoot against because he'll be trying to out do you.

That's a big no-go if reactive steel targets are being used, especially if they are used to trigger moving targets. We have those every match. Rimfire will not knock them down and tend to bounce back at the shooter and others, whereas full power rounds flatten and fall. You have to be able to handle a 9mm handgun to shoot any match at our club. IDPA does have a power factor floor you know. The rules apply to local club matches too.

Sorry that the 22 doesn't make power floor. We just try to get new young shooters involved in the sport.