[STI2011]

I bought a single stack last week and decided that I was going to shoot it at our club match last night even though I hadn't really done much practice with it (I normally shoot a 2011 style gun). I was the first shooter on the first stage and fired off my first 8 rounds, went to perform a reload and, I'm guessing my trigger finger wasn't completely clear of the trigger guard so that when I slammed the mag into the gun, the gun went off and the bullet flew over the forward berm.

There were no injuries except my pride.

It should never have happened - I can't even really use the new gun excuse. It just shouldn't have happened. When I was a new shooter, I used to be really good about getting my finger way out of the trigger guard and stiffening it and pointing it straight out along the slide. I guess I have gotten a little sloppy over time. This was my wake up call.

That was lesson 1.

Lesson 2 should be for ROs - when we got off the line the RO asked me what happened and I'm thinking, "Isn't it your job to be watching the gun? You tell me what happened" So, if you are the RO, you need to be watching the gun, not the bullets hitting the target.

This post has been edited by glockman2000: 10 July 2009 - 08:33 AM

[danscrapbags]

glockman2000, on Jul 10 2009, 10:31 AM, said:

Lesson 2 should be for ROs - when we got off the line the RO asked me what happened and I'm thinking, "Isn't it your job to be watching the gun? You tell me what happened" So, if you are the RO, you need to be watching the gun, not the bullets hitting the target.

So did you DQ yourself or did the RO DQ you?

This post has been edited by danscrapbags: 10 July 2009 - 09:30 AM

[JThompson]

You "most likely" did the finger thing, but I would check out the gun real well since it's new to you. I had a buddy DQ just like that and his finger was nowhere near the trigger. It was a SS gun at the SS classic.

This post has been edited by JThompson: 10 July 2009 - 09:49 AM

[STI2011]

danscrapbags, on Jul 10 2009, 09:29 AM, said:

glockman2000, on Jul 10 2009, 10:31 AM, said:

Lesson 2 should be for ROs - when we got off the line the RO asked me what happened and I'm thinking, "Isn't it your job to be watching the gun? You tell me what happened" So, if you are the RO, you need to be watching the gun, not the bullets hitting the target.

So did you DQ yourself or did the RO DQ you?

With everything happening so fast, I wasn't sure at first, if it happened when I slammed the mag into the gun or as I was transitioning back to a full grip since this kind of happens all at once so, I wasn't completely sure it was going to be a DQ. I knew I hadn't meant to fire the round but, I also knew the gun was pointed in a safe direction. Nobody yelled "Stop" and I completed the stage, including another reload. The match director was standing behind the stage at the time, called me over and DQed me after the stage was complete saying that the bullet went over the forward berm.

[STI2011]

JThompson, on Jul 10 2009, 09:48 AM, said:

You "most likely" did the finger thing, but I would check out the gun real well since it's new to you. I had a buddy DQ just like that and his finger was nowhere near the trigger. It was a SS gun at the SS classic.

I got the gun out this morning and did some dry fire reloads slamming the mag into the gun and didn't have the hammer fall so, I am pretty sure it was not the gun.

[JThompson]

glockman2000, on Jul 10 2009, 10:57 AM, said:

JThompson, on Jul 10 2009, 09:48 AM, said:

You "most likely" did the finger thing, but I would check out the gun real well since it's new to you. I had a buddy DQ just like that and his finger was nowhere near the trigger. It was a SS gun at the SS classic.

I got the gun out this morning and did some dry fire reloads slamming the mag into the gun and didn't have the hammer fall so, I am pretty sure it was not the gun.

I would take it to the range and run it the way you were then... full mags and one in the pipe, or SL. Whatever you had when it occurred.

[Franklin D Wolverton]

Based on what you describe, it would have been a DQ regardless of your finger being in the trigger...

Let's assume for a minute that your finger was NOT in the trigger guard and everything else you describe happened... the following actions would still be DQ'able...

10.4.1 - A shot which travels over the backstop or berm...
10.4.3 - A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a firearm.

If the finger WAS in the trigger guard, then you can add:

10.5.9 - Failure to keep finger outside of trigger guard while loading, reloading or unloading.

However... the RO should have stopped you as soon as it happened, not let you finish the stage. It could be argued that he DQ'd you after the fact, and MIGHT ( I repeat, MIGHT) make arbitration interesting...

But... this is why I write down ALL reasons for a DQ, not just the "most blatent" one. If one fails arbitration, the other ones will usually stand.

I hate when this happens. I've ALMOST done it a couple times... remembering at the last second to get my finger out of there...

Frank

This post has been edited by Franklin D Wolverton: 10 July 2009 - 10:38 AM

[JThompson]

DQ for sure, but just wanted to make sure it wasn't gun related and happened again.

This post has been edited by JThompson: 10 July 2009 - 10:44 AM

[danscrapbags]

So in your opinions, it is a DQ even though the RO did not stop the offender at the time of the offense? If the RM had not been watching the shooter he would not have been DQed. I am just asking, not trying to argue. I run a club in MN and want to know the correct procedure. I know that what he did is definately a DQable offense, I am just questioning the timing.

[BerKim]

I think sometimes, it takes the RO a little time to process what just happened. If it happens .5 seconds after or 10 full seconds .. the RO's calling it as soon as he can.. he/she might be double checking with the ARO.. to be 100% on the call?

I'm not sure there's a defined time limit?

[Franklin D Wolverton]

You're right... sometimes it takes a few seconds for the information to process. It freaks the RO out as well when something like this happens.

It's also been mentioned that he was probably conferring with an assistant, or the CRO. That happens. I still would have stopped him. Worst case there is he gets a reshoot for being stopped.

Letting him finish the stage is why I say it MIGHT get interesting in arbitration. It would be brought up for sure.

But yes... I would still DQ him, even if he did finish the stage. If he didn't like it, that what the appeal process is for.

Frank

[STI2011]

Just so that we are clear. I have no heartburn at all about being DQed. I know darn well that the shot was accidental and, I am treating this with all of the importance that it deserves so that I force myself to take a step back and re-evaluate my reloads and gun handling in general to see where I need to spend some extra time ensuring that everything is done safely.

This post has been edited by glockman2000: 10 July 2009 - 11:30 AM

[chefcs5]

glockman2000, on Jul 10 2009, 01:27 PM, said:

Just so that we are clear. I have no heartburn at all about being DQed. I know darn well that the shot was accidental and, I am treating this with all of the importance that it deserves so that I force myself to take a step back and re-evaluate my reloads and gun handling in general to see where I need to spend some extra time ensuring that everything is done safely.

Good sportsman...I commend you for not blaming everything/everyone else.
There are things that happen Im glad every one was safe after it happend. This just makes ytou realize why we have these rules and as every one does over time we become more Lax and things can happen. Seems like this will probably be the last time we hear of you doing something like this.

[mildot1]

Please don't take this the wrong way, I am in no way trying to excuse the offense. I am looking for clarification here.

Does the match director have the authority to DQ a shooter?

I was under the assumption that it had to be a R.O., C.R.O. or a Range Master.

I came to this conclusion after reading another thread and looking at the current rulebook I can find no authority given to the "match Director " to make such judgement.

Please educate me on this.

Mildot

[danscrapbags]

mildot1, on Jul 10 2009, 04:19 PM, said:

Please don't take this the wrong way, I am in no way trying to excuse the offense. I am looking for clarification here.

Does the match director have the authority to DQ a shooter?

I was under the assumption that it had to be a R.O., C.R.O. or a Range Master.

I came to this conclusion after reading another thread and looking at the current rulebook I can find no authority given to the "match Director " to make such judgement.

Please educate me on this.

Mildot

That is exactly the same thing that I am trying to learn from this disscussion.

[Franklin D Wolverton]

Nowhere in the rulebook does it say only RO's can disqualify someone. It says "match officials."

Technically, any Match Official can DQ someone... however, I don't think the MD should DQ anyone. It's creates a potential conflict of interest, since if it is arbitrated, he is the one who convenes arb committee, per 11.1.8.

However... if the MD did DQ someone, it is still subject to RM appeal per 7.1.7 - "the match directors...authority and decisions will prevail with regard to all matters except in respect of matters in these rules which are the domain of the Range Master."

This means that in regards to a DQ (in this case) the RM can override the MD.

Frank

[JThompson]

Now where is that popcorn...

[STI2011]

Franklin D Wolverton, on Jul 10 2009, 02:35 PM, said:

Nowhere in the rulebook does it say only RO's can disqualify someone. It says "match officials."

Technically, any Match Official can DQ someone... however, I don't think the MD should DQ anyone. It's creates a potential conflict of interest, since if it is arbitrated, he is the one who convenes arb committee, per 11.1.8.

However... if the MD did DQ someone, it is still subject to RM appeal per 7.1.7 - "the match directors...authority and decisions will prevail with regard to all matters except in respect of matters in these rules which are the domain of the Range Master."

This means that in regards to a DQ (in this case) the RM can override the MD.

Frank

Not to short circuit this informative discussion but, in this particular case (since it was a weekly small club match) the MD and the RM were, I believe, the same person.

[Franklin D Wolverton]

STI2011, on Jul 10 2009, 04:45 PM, said:

Franklin D Wolverton, on Jul 10 2009, 02:35 PM, said:

Nowhere in the rulebook does it say only RO's can disqualify someone. It says "match officials."

Technically, any Match Official can DQ someone... however, I don't think the MD should DQ anyone. It's creates a potential conflict of interest, since if it is arbitrated, he is the one who convenes arb committee, per 11.1.8.

However... if the MD did DQ someone, it is still subject to RM appeal per 7.1.7 - "the match directors...authority and decisions will prevail with regard to all matters except in respect of matters in these rules which are the domain of the Range Master."

This means that in regards to a DQ (in this case) the RM can override the MD.

Frank

Not to short circuit this informative discussion but, in this particular case (since it was a weekly small club match) the MD and the RM were, I believe, the same person.

There-in lies the problem with local matches... that is usually the case.

In that case, yes, the RM/MD can DQ someone. Your next, and only option would be arbitration.

Frank

[Dave S]

glockman2000, on Jul 10 2009, 10:31 AM, said:

That was lesson 1.

Lesson 2 should be for ROs - when we got off the line the RO asked me what happened and I'm thinking, "Isn't it your job to be watching the gun? You tell me what happened" So, if you are the RO, you need to be watching the gun, not the bullets hitting the target.

There is another point here that IMO is being overlooked. By far the first job of the RO is the safety of the COF. However too often the situation is that there is an RO and then someone keeping score, not really paying attention to what is happening during the shooters run. I hate that as an RO. I want someone behind me watching for faults, range failures and anything else I don't see while watch the shooter and gun. At the very least the RO should brief his "assistant" on what is expected.

This post has been edited by Dave S: 10 July 2009 - 03:29 PM