[Jon_R]

I would like to create a couple containers for shooters to drop their cleared long guns in on multi-gun stages. Does anyone have any suggestions or designs.

I assume using a trash can as the key part is the best with a frame to angle it some and provide some weight to keep from tipping over.

Line the container with something to protect the weapon. Any design, recommendations, or experiences would be appreciated. It would be stored in a big shipping container so it would be out of the rain and such. The lining maybe some padding has me a little worried. Don't want to scratch but also don't want to melt to a hot barrel.

We have been using safe tables so far and I would like to get away from using those. It takes the safe tables away from what they are for and leaves the long gun pointed horizontally.

Any feedback is welcome. Internet Searches are not working well. Getting lots of hits but nothing like what I am looking for.

[Greg Bell]

Plastic barrel top cut off mounted 45 degress on a sturdy frame made of 4x4. For padding we throw a scrap of carpet in there.

[HRider]

I agree on the barrel (or plastic garbage can) mounted at roughly a 45 degree angle. I have seen rubber antifatigue mat placed in the drums/cans as well as carpet. I have dumped my rifle and shotgun (not at the same time ) in cans lined with both materials without banging them up.
Hurley

[h2osport]

Go to www.bspsc.org and then click on the link to pictures in the middle of the home page. Browse through the 3 gun pictures and you will see a couple of pictures of the ones we use. They were made out of plywood, 2x4's and some hinges and some carpet. They have enough room to store all three guns. They fold flat for storage.

You can not see the front of them, but they are basically split in two down the middle so you can store 2 long guns(rifle and shotgun). The pocket on one side has a 2x4 about 16" from the top angling up at a 45degree angle for the pistol. Along the bottom they have a bout 6" of thin plywood to keep the barrels from sliding up and out.

Kinda hard to explain, but from the picture you can get an idea of what they are.

Randy

p.s. The pictures are in some flashplayer format, so I could not figure out how to post them.

[RiggerJJ]

PLEASE DO NOT tip or mount abandonment barrels at an angle!

Use a 35 gallon rubbermaid trash can with the stiff handles, (not the hinged handles) and use 2 pieces of rebar drove into the ground zip-tied to the handles. the rebar will hold them just fine. put them straight up and down onto the ground without tipping or putting them at an angle. you can put a piece of carpet in the bottom if you want, but its not necessary.

The reason for not tipping or mounting the barrel at an angle is, if you put a longgun into it and the muzzle finds it way to the high spot of the round part of the bottom, you suddenly have defeated the reason for using a vertical barrel for abandonment. the gun will be pointed down range! This will happen more often with long open shotguns that are butt heavy. you want the muzzle to be pointed straight into the ground.

This theory also works for pistols as well, but in a smaller scale, and you have to put a something in the bucket to support the grip so the pistol stays pointed into the ground.

Flat boxes are bad, because the simple act of putting the pistol into the box can knock the safety off, plus the pistol is not pointed down.

see this link for photos, look for post #20;
abandonment barrels & buckets

PM me or email for more details, we have been doing this for quite a while at Rocky Mountain 3 Gun and have worked out the bugs!

jj

[Jon_R]

I am going to try the trash can vertical with rebar and zip ties. It looks simple enough to try and it looks real easy to store. We will be using them at the match on the 18th. If you are in Central Florida join us.

[BerKim]

As a competitor.. I'd rather see a refinement to the 45 degree barrel than the vertical. I dislike vertical barrels.

If you're worried about the muzzle moving in a 45 degree barrel.. add a piece of plywood that would direct the muzzle downward, more difficult to construct, but i'd much rather see that than a vertical barel.

And even with the barrel, you shouldn't be directly downrange in front of the muzzle.

[Jon_R]

I may end up with an angle but thought I would try this first. The instructions to the shooters will be weapon must be cleared before being grounded. Failure to do so is Match DQ but until you have a flag in it you are never certain. The vertical selling point is I can put one can inside the other toss the rebar and padding in the top can and store it easily. Storing a frame would be harder but I will get some feedback from my shooters. They are pretty good about providing it and / or volunteer to fix my solution.

[J-Ho]

BerKim, on Jul 10 2009, 12:57 PM, said:

As a competitor.. I'd rather see a refinement to the 45 degree barrel than the vertical. I dislike vertical barrels.

If you're worried about the muzzle moving in a 45 degree barrel.. add a piece of plywood that would direct the muzzle downward, more difficult to construct, but i'd much rather see that than a vertical barel.

And even with the barrel, you shouldn't be directly downrange in front of the muzzle.

Why don't you like the vertical set up?

To me the vertical makes great sense. With the muzzle pointed strait down you now have you gun pointed at the world's largest berm.

[BerKim]

With the verticals, it can be more awkward to place the rifles quickly, and, at least for me.. more likely to hang up on my scope or magazine..

Personal preference..

[RiggerJJ]

As with any abandonment, you need to place the gun, not throw it, into the barrel. I find it rather perplexing how dumping into a vertical barrel is harder or more awkward than a barrel at an angle, the mouth of the barrel is the same size, about 2 feet in diameter...not that hard to do if you pay attention to what you are doing, and it shouldn't slow you down.
if you use a trash can there will be no lip to catch on. If you use a plastic barrel with the top cut out, there will be a lip unless you cut the top off from the side.

jj

[BerKim]

Hey.. I said personal preference..

Safe is safe.. there's not one way that's inherently more safe than another.

A vertical barrel can easily have the barrel pointing back towards the 180 line, if the rifle/shotgun muzzle was placed too far forward, and the stock tips forward.

The 'barrel' doesn't have to be a barrel.. it can be anything that holds the firearm safely.

Either way.. these things can be done.. and vertical is just your preference, another item I hope not all matches follow.

[Chris]

RiggerJJ, on Jul 10 2009, 09:09 PM, said:

As with any abandonment, you need to place the gun, not throw it, into the barrel. I find it rather perplexing how dumping into a vertical barrel is harder or more awkward than a barrel at an angle, the mouth of the barrel is the same size, about 2 feet in diameter...not that hard to do if you pay attention to what you are doing, and it shouldn't slow you down.
if you use a trash can there will be no lip to catch on. If you use a plastic barrel with the top cut out, there will be a lip unless you cut the top off from the side.

jj

I'll tell you why I don't like vertical barrels, because I'm 5'8". A plastic 55 gallon water drum is 35" tall. To get a long gun into it means I have to raise the muzzle of the gun above my waist (possibly sweeping myself) and just as high to get it out. How about the people that are shorter, women, younger shooters? See what I'm getting at?

[Filishooter]

BerKim, on Jul 10 2009, 10:57 PM, said:

A vertical barrel can easily have the barrel pointing back towards the 180 line, if the rifle/shotgun muzzle was placed too far forward, and the stock tips forward.

Kind of like this?

[Filishooter]

Preliminary plans for a 45 degree PVC barrel drop stand. Stand can be secured with sandbags or spikes.

This post has been edited by Filishooter: 15 July 2009 - 02:52 PM

[StealthyBlagga]

I'm with JJ on this one... I favor the vertical barrel or trash can. As an RO, I've seen a lot of people literally throwing the gun into the abandonment barrel to save time. A vertical abandonment barrel is harder to save time on by throwing the gun, lessening the incentive for this dodgy practice, and even if the gun is thrown there is less chance of it falling back out (it gets a little more help from Sir Isaac Newton). Sure, the gun can break the 180 slightly if it falls the wrong way, but its pointing right down at the ground so even if someone accidentally walks in front of the abandonment barrel they won't be at risk. At SMM3G we place a diagonal shelf inside the vertical barrel to prevent the gun from breaking the 180, and to safely handle short guns:

This post has been edited by StealthyBlagga: 15 July 2009 - 03:38 PM

[RiggerJJ]

Chris, on Jul 15 2009, 10:56 AM, said:

RiggerJJ, on Jul 10 2009, 09:09 PM, said:

As with any abandonment, you need to place the gun, not throw it, into the barrel. I find it rather perplexing how dumping into a vertical barrel is harder or more awkward than a barrel at an angle, the mouth of the barrel is the same size, about 2 feet in diameter...not that hard to do if you pay attention to what you are doing, and it shouldn't slow you down.
if you use a trash can there will be no lip to catch on. If you use a plastic barrel with the top cut out, there will be a lip unless you cut the top off from the side.

jj

I'll tell you why I don't like vertical barrels, because I'm 5'8". A plastic 55 gallon water drum is 35" tall. To get a long gun into it means I have to raise the muzzle of the gun above my waist (possibly sweeping myself) and just as high to get it out. How about the people that are shorter, women, younger shooters? See what I'm getting at?

I didn't say 55 gallon barrels, I said 35 gallon trash cans. Cheryl Current (5'2" or 3" I think?) is one of the most vertically challenged 3gunners I know, and she has no problems with our barrels. (If using 55 gallon barrels, just cut them down shorter, eliminates the lip and puts them at a good heigth) the 35 gallon are much shorter and work just fine, but neither can be SAFELY put at a 45 degree angle because sooner or later you will run into a extra long open shotgun that will not say muzzle down. (see post #5 and the link to seperate thread) Also, the problem that you see with the extra long open shotgun CAN happen with any length shotgun or rifle.
having a muzzle leaning back past the 180 AFTER the shooter places it into the abandonment barrel is a non-issue. Its still muzzle down, the safety is on, (or its empty) and it probably will not go bang by itself. If it does happen by some change in the earth's magnetic field or soemthing, the round will still just go into the ground.
Verticle is the safest way I can think of to deal with the problem, and again, this has been thought out very carefully by our entire staff.
as a side note, boxes at an angle are a real pain to get the muzzle in the little cup at the bottom, asking for dropped gun problems. The one in the above referenced thread also has a little pistol box in it at the top, which was very unsafe for some pistols.

jj

[Doug H.]

JJ,

I liked the way that you staked down the barrels at the Johnson Match, but this last week on the stage I was ROing at the R&R match, a competitor was grabbing his shotgun out of a inclined box and got his finger in the trigger guard and popped off the safety with his palm. The gun went off, blew a nice hole in the end of the box and made a really big cloud of dust. Because the box was at an angle, no one was hurt, but if it had been vertical, the hard gravel surface would have probably have deflected some of the shot towards the competitor and me. Any safety drops must be designed with the thought that some day, someone will fire off a round when dropping or picking up a gun. I would rather it was not pointing straight down (or possibly angle back at me) when it went off.

Doug

[Filishooter]

StealthyBlagga, on Jul 15 2009, 03:19 PM, said:

I'm with JJ on this one... I favor the vertical barrel or trash can. As an RO, I've seen a lot of people literally throwing the gun into the abandonment barrel to save time. A vertical abandonment barrel is harder to save time on by throwing the gun, lessening the incentive for this dodgy practice, and even if the gun is thrown there is less chance of it falling back out (it gets a little more help from Sir Isaac Newton). Sure, the gun can break the 180 slightly if it falls the wrong way, but its pointing right down at the ground so even if someone accidentally walks in front of the abandonment barrel they won't be at risk. At SMM3G we place a diagonal shelf inside the vertical barrel to prevent the gun from breaking the 180, and to safely handle short guns:

the angled shelf is the best solution I've seen for the issues with a vertical barrel.

[Jon_R]

What do you think the angled shelf should be made out of? I plan to start with a 35 Gallon Rubbermaid type garbage can.

[StealthyBlagga]

Jon_R, on Jul 15 2009, 06:12 PM, said:

What do you think the angled shelf should be made out of? I plan to start with a 35 Gallon Rubbermaid type garbage can.

IIRC ours are just plywood (maybe 1/2") with some carpet glued on ('cause we know how 3-gunners like to baby their safe queens ).

[RiggerJJ]

Doug H., on Jul 15 2009, 05:47 PM, said:

JJ,

I liked the way that you staked down the barrels at the Johnson Match, but this last week on the stage I was ROing at the R&R match, a competitor was grabbing his shotgun out of a inclined box and got his finger in the trigger guard and popped off the safety with his palm. The gun went off, blew a nice hole in the end of the box and made a really big cloud of dust. Because the box was at an angle, no one was hurt, but if it had been vertical, the hard gravel surface would have probably have deflected some of the shot towards the competitor and me. Any safety drops must be designed with the thought that some day, someone will fire off a round when dropping or picking up a gun. I would rather it was not pointing straight down (or possibly angle back at me) when it went off.

Doug

last year those inclined boxes you refer to were just plain dangerous. the long legs could come out of them if you bumped the box or leanded against it dropping the entire box on the ground, they were not fastened down, and there were other problems with them. the inclined box just does not provide the containment a simple barrel does. once a long gun OR a pistol is in the verticle barrel or bucket, its there to stay until its time to remove it.

As for the inclined vs verticle AD, I would much rather have the round go straight into the ground. hard gravel, dry dirt or clay, sod, etc will not deflect the projectile, it will go straight into the ground at that steep angle. ask me how I know...
concrete however is a different story.

jj

edit to add;
We looked at the shelf inside the trash can, and decided it was in the way too much. you start to put your rifle into the barrel, and bump! your muzzle hits the shelf...

This post has been edited by RiggerJJ: 16 July 2009 - 07:57 AM

[Doug H.]

I agree that the drop boxes at R&R need some work, like a bolt on each leg to keep it from pulling out and having the whole box drop to the ground, and they need to be staked down in the future to prevent movement. I don't have a prefered method of building drops, but I do feel that what ever method is used the potential AD has to be addressed and the muzzle must be angled away from the shooter. Any system that holds the gun secure and provides some angle is fine.
Doug

[Jon_R]

Just a little quick poll do you allow hot weapons to be put in these type of containers?

Either for pickup/ staged or that are abandoned.

I don't plan to do this but just curious if I am being over cautious for the IPSC 3-Gun Matches out there.

My plan
For weapons to be left they must be cleared. Magazine removed and chamber empty. If we use them to pick up a weapon staged no further loaded then magazine inserted bolt forward chamber empty.

I had thought about changing it based on COF like if you will stay behind the container maybe just on safe but I think I want to just keep it all the same no matter COF so someone does not get confused.

Abandoned weapons cleared staged weapons chamber empty.

[StealthyBlagga]

We allow guns to be abandoned in one of the following considions:

Either...

1) Safety catch set to SAFE.

or...

2) Gun totally empty.


If, upon returning to unload it, the RO finds one of the above conditions is NOT met, then it's a match DQ. Indeed, if the COF allows it, most ROs will glance at the gun to verify it is safe. With the muzzle pointing straight down, there is no problem advancing down range of the abandoned gun.