[KGentry]

PINMAN44, on Jun 30 2009, 07:11 PM, said:

Haha this is crazy. Mad deja vu This was a question I just recently asked when I did just that.

Here is an example of why u shouldn't stop.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=RevYnbUZRE8

Thread drift but I had to ask this - they do know that land mines (clay targets) are not allowed right? Thread drift off.

[BigTinVA]

KGentry, on Jun 30 2009, 11:21 PM, said:

Thread drift but I had to ask this - they do know that land mines (clay targets) are not allowed right? Thread drift off.

KGentry, I am just curious, do you have a cite in the rule book that supports this? The only rule that I think addresses this is 4.4.1 "Frangible targets, such as clay pigeons or tiles, are not authorized targets for USPSA Handgun matches", but these clay pigeons were not being used as targets, only as props or obstacles.

Thanks

[Spray_N_Prey]

yeah i'm pretty sure land mines can be used as props, just not as targets.

[mlmiller1]

I shot a uspsa state match a few years back that had clay "landmines". Rules may have changed since then but I didn't notice if they did. I know state matches have to have their stages approved by HQ so I assume it was legal.

MLM

[JayWord]

Spray_N_Prey, on Jul 1 2009, 01:22 PM, said:

yeah i'm pretty sure land mines can be used as props, just not as targets.

Shawn is correct. You can't shoot them in handgun, but their use as props is still legal. The only issue is on wet grass they tend to fall apart. I have done several large matches with them and even an Area match in the past.
Jay

[PINMAN44]

Kevin:

Sorry I didn't get back to you, I have no idea I would have to ask my area director. It was fun though I must admit. My targets weren't pasted towards the end that's why I stopped.

[Alan Meek]

For the record I hate clay targets as land mines.

If I fault a line I have the ability to pull back before I make the shot and I would not receive a penalty. With a clay target land mine there is no second chance, also if I drop a mag and it breaks the clay target I get a penalty. Whether the mag comes off the belt or from a reload.

Alan

[Jim Norman]

Alan,

And if you stepped on a mine and it went bang, would you have a 2nd chance?

Jim

[Alan Meek]

If I was inclined to be in a mine field no second chance, but I do try to stay away from known mine fields.

[nphd2000]

I thought this had something to do with bringing pets to the range

[Alan Meek]

Jim Norman, on Jul 2 2009, 06:50 AM, said:

Alan,

And if you stepped on a mine and it went bang, would you have a 2nd chance?

Jim

Then to use a clay target as a land mine in a course of fire. Upon breaking a land mine would be the end of the competitors course of fire for the stage and the remaining un-shot stages would be DNF'd.

Alan

[Spray_N_Prey]

Alan Meek, on Jul 2 2009, 06:33 AM, said:

Jim Norman, on Jul 2 2009, 06:50 AM, said:

Alan,

And if you stepped on a mine and it went bang, would you have a 2nd chance?

Jim

Then to use a clay target as a land mine in a course of fire. Upon breaking a land mine would be the end of the competitors course of fire for the stage and the remaining un-shot stages would be DNF'd.

Alan

I wish they had a land mine stage like that last Saturday. It was 103 degrees and no shade or wind. I guess it wasn't too bad after the 3rd or 4th heat stroke. I think I would have taken myself out on one of those land mines.

First time I shot one of these stages, my dropped magazine hit one. I couldn't believe they penalized me for it, but yeah KA-BOOM!!!!!!!

[Jim Norman]

The problems I see with clay minefields are several;

Too many, makes it nearly impossible to navigate.
Not well marked for replacement, so shooters dona' necessarily get the same challenge.

I would do as Alan suggests, and might just do so in a 3-gun, not in a USPSA pistol match.
Leave an un-neutralized target behind, Stage Zero, Break a mine, Stage Zero.

I can already hear the bitching, but it would make for an interesting COF.

Jim

[Nik Habicht]

Alan Meek, on Jul 2 2009, 06:42 AM, said:

For the record I hate clay targets as land mines.

If I fault a line I have the ability to pull back before I make the shot and I would not receive a penalty. With a clay target land mine there is no second chance, also if I drop a mag and it breaks the clay target I get a penalty. Whether the mag comes off the belt or from a reload.

Alan

Alan,
not the best analogy --- clay birds = fault lines.....

better analogy perhaps --- clay bird field provides a challenge similar to a Cooper tunnel, in that the shooter needs to move carefully....

I'm fine with them occasionally, and perhaps in a controlled portion of the FFZ.....

[mactiger]

Alan Meek, on Jul 2 2009, 06:24 AM, said:

If I was inclined to be in a mine field no second chance, but I do try to stay away from known mine fields.

What are you posting here for, then?

Troy

[Alan Meek]

Nik Habicht, on Jul 2 2009, 09:12 AM, said:

Alan Meek, on Jul 2 2009, 06:42 AM, said:

For the record I hate clay targets as land mines.

If I fault a line I have the ability to pull back before I make the shot and I would not receive a penalty. With a clay target land mine there is no second chance, also if I drop a mag and it breaks the clay target I get a penalty. Whether the mag comes off the belt or from a reload.

Alan

Alan,
not the best analogy --- clay birds = fault lines.....

better analogy perhaps --- clay bird field provides a challenge similar to a Cooper tunnel, in that the shooter needs to move carefully....

I'm fine with them occasionally, and perhaps in a controlled portion of the FFZ.....

Cooper tunnels are are at least afforded the following exceptions

10.2.5 In a Cooper Tunnel, a competitor who disturbs one or more pieces of
the overhead material will receive one procedural penalty for each
piece of overhead material which falls during the course of fire.
Overhead material which falls as a result of the competitor bumping or
striking the uprights, or as a result of muzzle gases or recoil, will not
be penalized.

[PINMAN44]

So Alan the entire stage was illegal or not? I'm still confused.

[Alan Meek]

PINMAN44, on Jul 2 2009, 12:08 PM, said:

So Alan the entire stage was illegal or not? I'm still confused.

Robby,

That stage was illegal because of the mandatory reload and the round count was 24. There is an exception to mandatory reloads in a medium course of fire, where a medium course of fire is defined as no more than 16 rounds.

Alan

[BSeevers]

Alan Meek, on Jul 2 2009, 07:33 AM, said:

Jim Norman, on Jul 2 2009, 06:50 AM, said:

Alan,

And if you stepped on a mine and it went bang, would you have a 2nd chance?

Jim

Then to use a clay target as a land mine in a course of fire. Upon breaking a land mine would be the end of the competitors course of fire for the stage and the remaining un-shot stages would be DNF'd.

Alan

Its a game. If not why not have some of that brown cardboard shoot back? That would end your fun day in a hurry too.

I think land mines are not equal challenges in most cases. But they are legal.

Remember they could be Bouncing Bettys and maybe you don't die you just walk and talk funny for the rest of your life. But you could finish the match.

[Alan Meek]

BSeevers, on Jul 2 2009, 12:34 PM, said:

Alan Meek, on Jul 2 2009, 07:33 AM, said:

Jim Norman, on Jul 2 2009, 06:50 AM, said:

Alan,

And if you stepped on a mine and it went bang, would you have a 2nd chance?

Jim

Then to use a clay target as a land mine in a course of fire. Upon breaking a land mine would be the end of the competitors course of fire for the stage and the remaining un-shot stages would be DNF'd.

Alan

Its a game. If not why not have some of that brown cardboard shoot back? That would end your fun day in a hurry too.

I think land mines are not equal challenges in most cases. But they are legal.

Remember they could be Bouncing Bettys and maybe you don't die you just walk and talk funny for the rest of your life. But you could finish the match.

Yes it is a game and I agree that they are not equal challenges. Just my personal hatred of using them in a stage. But if they are used I will play the game.

Alan

[SA Friday]

bubblegum?

[Alan Meek]

SA Friday, on Jul 2 2009, 01:18 PM, said:

bubblegum?

Only if they stick to your shoes

[L-10_shooter]

Wow this sounds like fun. I cant seeing them in a major match as mags will break them at random. But great for a club match as something different and fun!! I am going to email my local MD and see if we can get a stage for a future club match.

[Dan Burwell]

So can someone explain to me what it the normal penalty for breaking a clay. a procedural for each broken or I heard it mentioned above a stage zero (seems a bit harsh)? or is it just up to the WSB? I have never seen this before and it could be a great suprise for our match this weekend.

[BSeevers]

Dan Burwell, on Jul 2 2009, 01:58 PM, said:

So can someone explain to me what it the normal penalty for breaking a clay. a procedural for each broken or I heard it mentioned above a stage zero (seems a bit harsh)? or is it just up to the WSB? I have never seen this before and it could be a great suprise for our match this weekend.

Its almost always a -10 procedural.

We were tongue in cheek saying in the "real world" you would prob die or "zero" rest of stages. remember its a landmine.