[SA Friday]

Over the last couple of years, I have many conversations with multiple shooters about this topic. There seems to be two frames of thought:

1. You have to practice going fast.
2. You should always shoot within yourself and the speed will come.

I'm a blunt man, so I'll just lay it out there: Number 2 is crap (pun intended). Number 2 may work for some people, but not everyone is the same. I really wonder what would happen to some of those shooters out there languishing in C and B class waiting for the speed to magically happen actually forced their speed into the red zone once out of every 4 local matches. I bet a lot of them would move up a class in one season of shooting.

Eventually, you are going to have to practice going fast. I don't care what you call it or when you do it, but you are NOT going to learn how to drive a stock car at 200mph by going 55mph. I have upon occasion gone to a local match with the intent of shooting the stages as fast as I can, and damned the Mikes.

I've ran into those who scoff at this thought process. What better place to practice pushing your speed up then at a local match upon occasion? Doing this KNOWING you are using the match as a practice run instead of competing, and then analyzing the results to see where you need work, what distance targets were at that you lost your hits, etc.

[uscbigdawg]

In practice, push as hard and as fast as you can, but working your way up to it trying not to sacrifice results for speed. It will happen, but then you just back it down a bit. Later, during the SAME, practice session, push it back up again until you start getting sloppy or compromising results. Basically, you're trying to re-establish YOUR 100% speed/performance.

Then...at a match, go 85-90% so that you know you're not compromising results, but YOUR speed will be faster than it once was. Trust your speed and you will be fast.

Rich

[Rocket35]

I agree that you need to practice pushing the envelope in practice. I like the push until the wheels come off, then dial it back a bit approach. Keep working on pushing outside your comfort zone enough and your speed will increase. There is some merit to pushing the speed in a club match. But I caution doing this regularly as it will bleed into a major match and cost valuable points. I say this with experience! In club matches, I like to treat them as a major match and practice shooting matches. There is a mental game to it that you don't get at the practice range. In matches trust that the speed will be there and put it out of you mind as much as possible. Train for speed and focus more on consistancy and quality hits, calling shots and visualizing the stages at matches. That's my take and, trust me, I need to improve that philosophy as well. Confidence is king. Know your abilities and limitations learned by pushing that speed in practice.

[bkeeler]

SA Friday, on Jun 30 2009, 10:58 AM, said:

Over the last couple of years, I have many conversations with multiple shooters about this topic. There seems to be two frames of thought:

1. You have to practice going fast.
2. You should always shoot within yourself and the speed will come.

I'm a blunt man, so I'll just lay it out there: Number 2 is crap (pun intended). Number 2 may work for some people, but not everyone is the same. I really wonder what would happen to some of those shooters out there languishing in C and B class waiting for the speed to magically happen actually forced their speed into the red zone once out of every 4 local matches. I bet a lot of them would move up a class in one season of shooting.

Eventually, you are going to have to practice going fast. I don't care what you call it or when you do it, but you are NOT going to learn how to drive a stock car at 200mph by going 55mph. I have upon occasion gone to a local match with the intent of shooting the stages as fast as I can, and damned the Mikes.

I've ran into those who scoff at this thought process. What better place to practice pushing your speed up then at a local match upon occasion? Doing this KNOWING you are using the match as a practice run instead of competing, and then analyzing the results to see where you need work, what distance targets were at that you lost your hits, etc.

I have been doing this(#1) in all local matches and it is working.

Sure I get a few mikes but I do not beat myself up over it.


What is worse than a mike?





















..........A slow mike!




BK

[JThompson]

Thanks for bringing this up... I had a revelation along this line this past weekend.

I think you have to practice to the point of destruction to know where the point is, but you need to be careful not to make to much of your practice that way. Otherwise, in a match you will revert to that speed... it's how you trained after all.

The revelation was this: The key isn't knowing just where and when to use what speed or vision. The problem is you need to make that decision in tenths of seconds. You are slightly off balance getting in, what could have been a 95 speed shot now becomes a 70% shot and if you take it at 80 or more you're going to hose it. It's those decisions on the fly that can not be programmed that make the biggest difference. I mean how many times do you really get in and out with perfect balance, perfect grip, vision right where is should be etc etc. The key is to just KNOW that at this very moment this is a 80% or at that moment I can go 95. Also, if you hose the run a bit, do not let the thought creep in that you have to makeup that time... you can NOT make up time on a stage.

This also works in the other direction and is where you can pickup time. I was using more focus than I needed and it was slowing me down, but I was shooting solid and did not want to change anything. That was the comfort zone and I didn't know how to change it without blowing up, so was I moving and seeing as much as I needed to... no, I was seeing more, but I didn't have a good answer in how to change it without pushig over the line. I think this might be lack of experience on my part... may be it just takes time to be able to constantly adjust to where 90% is give all the variables of movement, grip, stance, footing etc.. I think one of the biggest problems in newer shooters such as myself is that, in our head, X shot should take X time, but that doesn't take into account y and y is everything.

I dunno if this made any sense... it was free writing for losing the thought....

This post has been edited by JThompson: 30 June 2009 - 11:37 AM

[AR Gunner]

I shoot regularly with a Master Class shooter who encourages me on certain practice stages to pick up the speed. I believe there is a lot to learn from pushing the envelope of your ability during practice - and practice is the best time to see what works best for you.

[NMBOpen]

JThompson, on Jun 30 2009, 12:36 PM, said:

Thanks for bringing this up... I had a revelation along this line this past weekend.

I think you have to practice to the point of destruction to know where the point is, but you need to be careful not to make to much of your practice that way. Otherwise, in a match you will revert to that speed... it's how you trained after all.

The revelation was this: The key isn't knowing just where and when to use what speed or vision. The problem is you need to make that decision in tenths of seconds. You are slightly off balance getting in, what could have been a 95 speed shot now becomes a 70% shot and if you take it at 80 or more you're going to hose it. It's those decisions on the fly that can not be programmed that make the biggest difference. I mean how many times do you really get in and out with perfect balance, perfect grip, vision right where is should be etc etc. The key is to just KNOW that at this very moment this is a 80% or at that moment I can go 95. Also, if you hose the run a bit, do not let the thought creep in that you have to makeup that time... you can NOT make up time on a stage.

This also works in the other direction and is where you can pickup time. I was using more focus than I needed and it was slowing me down, but I was shooting solid and did not want to change anything. That was the comfort zone and I didn't know how to change it without blowing up, so was I moving and seeing as much as I needed to... no, I was seeing more, but I didn't have a good answer in how to change it without pushig over the line. I think this might be lack of experience on my part... may be it just takes time to be able to constantly adjust to where 90% is give all the variables of movement, grip, stance, footing etc.. I think one of the biggest problems in newer shooters such as myself is that, in our head, X shot should take X time, but that doesn't take into account y and y is everything.

I dunno if this made any sense... it was free writing for losing the thought....

Actually, it makes a lot of sense. I think of my college time in Engineering as "fine tuning" my BS filter. Profs liked to inflate exam questions with lots of important sounding factoids, 90% of which were irrelevant to solving the problem. Same with shooting - discover what's needed to get results (y) and tune out x.

[bkeeler]

As long as you have the fundamentals down and know why you missed a target or had a bad hit, I think is the key. I did not miss the target because I was going to fast I missed because I did not see what I needed to to make the hit. You have to find out what you can get away with and this is different for everyone, and the only way to do that is push hard.


BK

[rvb]

so, "Who does Number 2 work for?"

ok, enough Austin Powers....

I agree with you 90%.

I need to convince myself that physically and mechanically some things can actually happen faster, that I CAN go faster. I like to step out of my comfort zone. I often push myself just to see what I can see; to learn to observe more in less time... which is really just observing more.

Sometimes I go through the motions as fast as I can without regard to As (or hits!). Im usually able to learn what is holding me back, work on it, and then go for As. What I often find is that my old pars seems slow and As come easier. I moved up a class in 2 divisions in the past year by taking this approach (and I think my match performance followed). And that's with very limited live fire and moderate-at-best dryfire.

Where I disagree is that I take that approach in practice. "Damn the mikes" at the local match doesn't have as much benefit for the reasons Rocket35 mentions. I often push myself and experiment in locals, but mikes don't give me any baseline. Mikes leave the question of "was I on the edge or WAY past it?" There is little learning that comes from just slinging lead, even if you're calling the mikes.

That doesn't mean you can't push yourself outside of your confort zone at matches. At the recent Area5, I felt like I plodded along at 85%, being too cautious. At this weekend's local I intend to push myself at 99.9% to bring that fire back and find that ragged edge, but I want to be penalty free, too.

there's a time and place for crash and burn. As in your racing analogy, there's no since hittin the wall 1/4 of the races, either. spin out in practice but at least cross the finish line on race day...

-rvb

This post has been edited by rvb: 30 June 2009 - 12:07 PM

[eerw]

OK...random thoughts..cause I shoot with SA FRIDAY from time to time.



for me..this sport has always been about shooting fast. that's where the adrenalin is, that is where the fun is. if I wanted to shoot slow, I'd shoot bullseye..and when I do..I still shoot faster than they do

So when I started..back in the old days..it was shoot fast, the hits will come.

over the years..I have come to find out the trick to shooting faster... see faster, call shots faster, move efficiently.
I still like to hit the wall, as that is where I learn if I am seeing faster, calling faster and moving efficiently.



In practice..I like to find the extremes..what is the point where I hit the wall..where is the bottom end where it is all alpha's. In a local match I will sometimes experiment with those limits just to jot it down in the notebook.
otherwise..it's find the line in the track.

[Sterling White]

I started out typing thoughts on this subject and then sat back and put a stop to myself. Would suggest, if you have not already done it, taking a look at books such as Beyond Fundamentals or Perfect Practice. They helped me and believe they can help step you through this learning curve. Burkett's Shoot Faster CD does a nice job of explaining this as well.

[CHA-LEE]

I say that you should run it like a rental until the wheels fall off then back it off a notch or two. When you back it off solid hits shouldn’t be 100% comfortable or obtainable or you will not be pushed to learn anything on why you are not getting your hits. Once you can shoot consistently at that new level, then repeat the "run it like a rental" process to push the bar higher. This process can be applied to anything really.

What you practice is how you will perform. So if you take the conservative speed rout in your practice to ensure solid hits, then you will shoot conservatively in your match runs. If you practice with a ton of out of control reckless shooting, then obviously that is how you will perform during the match. As your skill progress there will be a natural ebb and flow of effectively performing whatever skill during the learning process. When you take the training wheels off for the first time, some skinned knees and frustration about failing is to be expected. Champion why it isn't working and learn to move beyond it.

My father use to say "If you want some Pizza, go and get it. The Pizza man isn't going to read your mind and come to your door on his own asking you if you want some Pizza". This simple analogy can be applied to many things in life. If you really want something you have to fight for it, earn it, and respect it. If you sit around waiting for hand outs then you may be sitting with nothing for a long time or may not be happy with what you end up getting left with.

[Aristotle]

During practice, I push it to the limits, at a match I go for 60-70% because my adrenaline will bump it up to a safe 85-90%.

I started off as pure speed, and I'm still all about it. I think now that that's all I know, I am very comfortable going fast, when it finally clicks is when you can relax enough, going at those speeds to actually "execute" your shots and game plan.

You can shoot fast, but you need to be in a mind set that will allow you to also think during the COF. That's called comfort gained through repetition.

[BritinUSA]

I don't think the choices are absolute; When a person first starts shooting IPSC/USPSA, option 2 should definitely apply and should continue to apply until such time as they develop range awareness, muzzle awareness, good groups, trigger control, sight alignment etc. etc. In other words the second option should apply until such time as the basics of shooting have been mastered.

Once that has been accomplished then they should pursue a gradual acceleration of speed until they hit the point of failure, work on the reason for that failure and then pursue the speed again.

Rinse and repeat.

[Jadeslade]

Drive it like you stole it. In practice. Drive it like you own it. In matches.

[SA Friday]

BritinUSA, on Jun 30 2009, 02:03 PM, said:

I don't think the choices are absolute; When a person first starts shooting IPSC/USPSA, option 2 should definitely apply and should continue to apply until such time as they develop range awareness, muzzle awareness, good groups, trigger control, sight alignment etc. etc. In other words the second option should apply until such time as the basics of shooting have been mastered.

Once that has been accomplished then they should pursue a gradual acceleration of speed until they hit the point of failure, work on the reason for that failure and then pursue the speed again.

Rinse and repeat.

agreed. I was talking more about the C's and B's that are solid shooters already. I will not be having my 14 year old daughter with only one match under her attempting this philosophy until the time is right.

[fourtrax]

I'm with SA Friday, #2 to me is crap. But, I came to that after a couple of years languishing. I remember telling my Dad (we shoot together) that I couldn't remember the last no shoot or mike I had. It dawned on me shortly after I made that statement that I needed to get "ants in my pants". If I was going to progress I needed to watch the better shooters and try to match their times as best I could. Seems to be working. I do occassionally get a mike, but I never admit it. All my matches are clean and fun. Just shot my best match to date at Bend of the River.

I really do remember thinking during that long stretch of deliberateness that the sport was kinda getting ho-hum. I always finished good for my class. I'm glad I had that revelation. I will know what to do in the future if it happens again.

[SA Friday]

Jadeslade, on Jun 30 2009, 02:05 PM, said:

Drive it like you stole it. In practice. Drive it like you own it. In matches.

Why not at the occasional club match? Do you set up 5-6 stages and practice with GM's at your practice sessions? I doubt it. The relationship you can see by occasionally pushing your speed at a club match, comparison of your times and hits, and the variaty of shooting scenarios at a match compared to 'just at your practice session' is bigger than people give it credit.

A club match is a club match unless you make it more. I think the majority of shooters HAVE to crash during a match on occasion to glean what they need to work on to improve and truely understand where they can shoot as fast as possible and still get their hits.

"I shoot all my matches at xx%..." Oh really? How do you know? Have you ever shot a match at 100%, or do you just do that in practice sessions? Practice isn't a match, not a club match, not a big match. It's just a practice session. The shooting is different, the setting is different, the endurance level is different.

[Mistral404]

I was fortunate to have conversations with TGO and Mike Seeklander about this topic. The key in practice is to re-enforce the positive skills learned. The second goal is what they call Controlled Chaos that occurs in a match. The more you practice Controlled Chaos, the more comfortable the shooter will be in a match. TGO talks about treating each local match with the same intensity as a big match. Mike emphasizes the need to really push the limits during a practice session.

The imiportant part of the practice is to always dial it back. In pushing the limits, pushes the tecnique, which can cause errors. The key is not to have training scars. Push the limits, then dial it back at the end. This way the bad part of pushing does not become ingrained in the subconcious mind. But the feeling of pushing the limits sets a new bar.

I am been subject to the Matt Burkett stick. Everytime I would not push myself, he would hit me. If pushing yourself to new limits can not be done individually, then partner up with someone who will say go faster.

The key for me, is not to develop training scars. I have spent the past few years getting rid of them and my shooting shows it. Now I need to start pushing the limits.

[Jadeslade]

SA Friday, on Jun 30 2009, 04:32 PM, said:

Jadeslade, on Jun 30 2009, 02:05 PM, said:

Drive it like you stole it. In practice. Drive it like you own it. In matches.

Why not at the occasional club match? Do you set up 5-6 stages and practice with GM's at your practice sessions? I doubt it. The relationship you can see by occasionally pushing your speed at a club match, comparison of your times and hits, and the variaty of shooting scenarios at a match compared to 'just at your practice session' is bigger than people give it credit.

A club match is a club match unless you make it more. I think the majority of shooters HAVE to crash during a match on occasion to glean what they need to work on to improve and truely understand where they can shoot as fast as possible and still get their hits.

"I shoot all my matches at xx%..." Oh really? How do you know? Have you ever shot a match at 100%, or do you just do that in practice sessions? Practice isn't a match, not a club match, not a big match. It's just a practice session. The shooting is different, the setting is different, the endurance level is different.

Some people drive the cars they own really fast. If you can get all A's and C's going really fast-I think that's good. D's and Mikes, no. You don't want the wheels to come off at a match, any match. I think I actually shoot faster in bigger matches, due to focus. Actually just one GM and 3-4 stages.

This post has been edited by Jadeslade: 30 June 2009 - 01:52 PM

[RobMoore]

Jadeslade, on Jun 30 2009, 04:50 PM, said:

Some people drive the cars they own really fast.

driver8M3 and I have a funny story about that.

[bkeeler]

Here is a good post along these lines.


http://www.brianenos...?...st&p=963064

BK

[benos]

Push, don't push, fast, slow, shoot within your ability... forget all those confusing concepts. And train yourself, continuously in practice and matches - to shoot as soon as you know you will score a maximum value hit.

As you practice with that goal in mind, and as all of your skills improve - including your ability to call your shots with a good degree of certainty and precision - your speed will naturally increase as you remove visual obstructions.

In IPSC, depending on the target difficulty, you want shoot the first shot on a target as soon as the sights are either coming into or stopped in the A box. For the second shot, you need to shoot as soon as the sights come back into the top part of the A box for an easier shot, and as soon as they stop in the A box for a harder shot. You need to be seeing a lot to do that.

For steel plate shooting, like the Steel Challenge, the goal is similar. For big close easy plates like the first four big rectangles in Smoke and Hope - your gun never stops moving as you pick them off "on the move." On those targets, you see what you need to see (to accomplish the goal) by just seeing that indeed your gun was pointing at each target when it fired. But for the stop plate, you want to "reel in those sights" so your right on them when they stop hard on the target.

Or in other words, instead of pushing or not pushing, train yourself to see.
be

[rvb]

RobMoore, on Jun 30 2009, 05:09 PM, said:

Jadeslade, on Jun 30 2009, 04:50 PM, said:

Some people drive the cars they own really fast.

driver8M3 and I have a funny story about that.

I went through 1/4 tank of gas following him to lunch after a match once. My f150 takes a lot of gas to push the wind that fast. haha

-rvb

[SA Friday]

rvb, on Jun 30 2009, 06:16 PM, said:

RobMoore, on Jun 30 2009, 05:09 PM, said:

Jadeslade, on Jun 30 2009, 04:50 PM, said:

Some people drive the cars they own really fast.

driver8M3 and I have a funny story about that.

I went through 1/4 tank of gas following him to lunch after a match once. My f150 takes a lot of gas to push the wind that fast. haha

-rvb

I think we could have at least a 2 or 3 page thread on being in or following driver8M3's car. Oh ya, he drives faster after turning around from being lost like he lost time or something too...