Rule Question - Intent of "same capacity magazines"...... Options

[AggieMM]

At a recent sanctioned match, there was a rule interpretation made that seemed odd, and I wanted to get some other opinions.

The issue came up with a SSP shooter (not me) that had 10 mags, 5 were 10 round and 5 were 17 round magazines. The SO during the equipment check before the start of the match told the shooter that he can't mix 10 rounders and high-cap magazines. That the shooter must use the EXACT same capacity mags through-out the match.

Looking at the rulebook ( http://www.idpa.com/Documents/IDPARuleBook2005.pdf ), on page 19-20 it states:

G. Be loaded to the division capacity of ten (10) rounds in the magazine plus one (1) round in the chamber. Should division capacity not be achievable because of lower magazine capacity, load to maximum mechanical capacity of magazine plus one (1) round in the chamber. Competitors must use the same capacity magazines through out the competition. (Example: if you start with a 9 round magazine, you must use that capacity magazine throughout the match).

I think I understand the intent, that if you start the match with magazines that load X number of rounds, you must load X number of rounds through-out the match. I understand that you don't want shooters starting with 8, 9, or maybe 7 to get a favorable point for a reload in a particular stage. However, should it matter whether I load 10 rounds in a 10 round mag or 10 rounds in a 17 round mag?

Does the phrase "same capacity magazines" mean the potential maximum capacity, or does it mean that you must load X number of rounds in your mags through-out the entire match, no matter if 10 rounders, or high-caps?

Thoughts / comments?

Ryan

[Steve J]

Curiously similar to a thread that's out of control on the IDPA forum, and you know the answer. ???

It does not matter how many rounds your IDPA legal magazines hold as long as all are loaded with the same number of rounds at the start signal throughout the match. The correct default number is your divisions capacity. In the case cited, that would be 10. You can mix and match 10-rd, 12-rd, 17-rd IDPA legal magazines as long as they all only have 10-rds at the start signal.

The confusion I imagine arises from ESP 1911 shooters who may have 9-rd and 10-rd magazines. If you use one 9-rd magazine in the match then you can only load your 10-rd magazines with 9 rounds.

The intent of the rule is to prevent people from gaming where their slide lock reload comes. It is not to make people use all like-capacity magazines.

[PHolsted]

The intent of the rule is to prevent people from gaming where their slide lock reload comes. It is not to make people use all like-capacity magazines.

+1

Could not have been said any better!

[persona non grat...]

also, as long as the gun fits in the box with the empty magazine inserted and makes weight.

[AggieMM]

Thanks, that's what I thought. I think the SO in question made a too literal interpretation of the rules.

Ryan

[Gregg K]

Thanks, that's what I thought. I think the SO in question made a too literal interpretation of the rules.

Ryan

He has been told that he will be staked to a cross and burned like a witch at the next match.

[Punkin Chunker]

Does the phrase "same capacity magazines" mean the potential maximum capacity, or does it mean that you must load X number of rounds in your mags through-out the entire match, no matter if 10 rounders, or high-caps?

Thoughts / comments?

Ryan

That's a question I've wondered about too.

It seems that if the rules meant any capacity magazines, as long as they were loaded to the same amount, than the phrase "same capacity magazines" would have been worded differently, or the thought omitted entirely and the rule just focus on division capacity.

I know that at club level, probably no one really cares, as long as each magazine is loaded at division capacity.

After all, that's the purpose of the rule, isn't it?

It might make a bigger difference with 1911s in CDP, where 7 rounders and 8 rounders could be mixed to set up slide lock at different points, and who would really notice that any specific magazine had one more or fewer rounds than the previous magazine, anyway?

[Duane Thomas]

and who would really notice that any specific magazine had one more or fewer rounds than the previous magazine, anyway?

Any SO who's paying attention. I've seen that caught several times at my own IDPA club, though invariably it was a case of an honest mistake by a new shooter who wasn't really clear on the rules.

[TEXASTACTICAL]

Thanks, that's what I thought. I think the SO in question made a too literal interpretation of the rules.

Ryan

He has been told that he will be staked to a cross and burned like a witch at the next match.

So his re-education is complete? Do I know this person?

Michael "Iron Mike" Webb
IDPA Area Coordinator
Texas, New Mexico and Louisiana

[PHolsted]

and who would really notice that any specific magazine had one more or fewer rounds than the previous magazine, anyway?

This is the SO's Job! At local matches I have seen this several times. Mostly from new competitors who do not know all the rules.

At larger sanctioned matched there should be a place on the score sheet to denote "Mag Capacity".

The competitor lets say shooting in CDP and has two 8 round mags and on 7 then they can only load a MAX of seven rounds in each mag.

If as an SO I notice this guy is shooting CDP and has noted on his score sheet he is loading 7 rounds max in each mag I will know where he should reload. But they move through the COF they do not reload where they should have but one shot later then you are looking a a FTDR.

[GRR]

and who would really notice that any specific magazine had one more or fewer rounds than the previous magazine, anyway?

I would. I had to ding a guy at the Alabama State match for loading the wrong number of rounds in a mag. I know where a shooter will go to slide lock on my stages for every division.

[Shawn Knight]

Alright... So if I am shooting CDP and I have 2 7rounders and 1 8rounder I have to load all my mags to 7 rounds??

[ajg308]

Curiously similar to a thread that's out of control on the IDPA forum, and you know the answer. ???

It does not matter how many rounds your IDPA legal magazines hold as long as all are loaded with the same number of rounds at the start signal throughout the match. The correct default number is your divisions capacity. In the case cited, that would be 10. You can mix and match 10-rd, 12-rd, 17-rd IDPA legal magazines as long as they all only have 10-rds at the start signal.

The confusion I imagine arises from ESP 1911 shooters who may have 9-rd and 10-rd magazines. If you use one 9-rd magazine in the match then you can only load your 10-rd magazines with 9 rounds.

The intent of the rule is to prevent people from gaming where their slide lock reload comes. It is not to make people use all like-capacity magazines.

+1

[Gregg K]

Alright... So if I am shooting CDP and I have 2 7rounders and 1 8rounder I have to load all my mags to 7 rounds??

That is correct.

[ajg308]

Alright... So if I am shooting CDP and I have 2 7rounders and 1 8rounder I have to load all my mags to 7 rounds??

Yes. You may load 8 rounder and at LAMR you will then be at 7+1 without topping off. If the 8 round mag starts on belt, then it must be at 7. Or if you have a stage where you load the gun after the start signal it must be at 7. etc, etc, etc.

[Shawn Knight]

Alright... So if I am shooting CDP and I have 2 7rounders and 1 8rounder I have to load all my mags to 7 rounds??

That is correct.

Alright... So if I am shooting CDP and I have 2 7rounders and 1 8rounder I have to load all my mags to 7 rounds??

Yes. You may load 8 rounder and at LAMR you will then be at 7+1 without topping off. If the 8 round mag starts on belt, then it must be at 7. Or if you have a stage where you load the gun after the start signal it must be at 7. etc, etc, etc.

I guess I have broken the rules a few times. Oh well...

[Punkin Chunker]

Alright... So if I am shooting CDP and I have 2 7rounders and 1 8rounder I have to load all my mags to 7 rounds??

That is correct.

Alright... So if I am shooting CDP and I have 2 7rounders and 1 8rounder I have to load all my mags to 7 rounds??

Yes. You may load 8 rounder and at LAMR you will then be at 7+1 without topping off. If the 8 round mag starts on belt, then it must be at 7. Or if you have a stage where you load the gun after the start signal it must be at 7. etc, etc, etc.

I guess I have broken the rules a few times. Oh well...

What, and the SOs didn't catch you?????

[Shawn Knight]

Alright... So if I am shooting CDP and I have 2 7rounders and 1 8rounder I have to load all my mags to 7 rounds??

That is correct.

Alright... So if I am shooting CDP and I have 2 7rounders and 1 8rounder I have to load all my mags to 7 rounds??

Yes. You may load 8 rounder and at LAMR you will then be at 7+1 without topping off. If the 8 round mag starts on belt, then it must be at 7. Or if you have a stage where you load the gun after the start signal it must be at 7. etc, etc, etc.

I guess I have broken the rules a few times. Oh well...

What, and the SOs didn't catch you?????

It happens I guess!!

[PHolsted]

What, and the SOs didn't catch you?????

As with competition every competitor gets lucky sometimes. But you do it long enough you will get caught. But that's not the point.

We should play the game within the rules. If you get caught cheating then suck it up and take the penalty.

[Jim Watson]

There was one sneaky sort who said he would look over the stages and determine if he would be better off on average at 10+1 maximum for ESP or SSP or if he would time out better at 9+1 which is a common position for shooters whose match directors are hung up on double tap paper. Then load accordingly. He thought that was ok because he did it the same for each complete match, based on the most common stage layout, but since in the latter case he was not loading to capacity, I consider it unethical at best.

[Shawn Knight]

I only shot CDP once and promptly went back to my norm of ESP and the silliness of this rule never vexed me again!

[persona non grat...]

There was one sneaky sort who said he would look over the stages and determine if he would be better off on average at 10+1 maximum for ESP or SSP or if he would time out better at 9+1 which is a common position for shooters whose match directors are hung up on double tap paper. Then load accordingly. He thought that was ok because he did it the same for each complete match, based on the most common stage layout, but since in the latter case he was not loading to capacity, I consider it unethical at best.

If I was an MD for a major match. I would intentionally publish one set of stage descriptions/diagrams in the match booklet or online with the caveat that stages were subject to change at the last minute. Then at the match a stage or three would require the targets get mozambiqued instead of just double tapped or some of the targets would get moved between the arrays, just to throw off these gamey @#$%&^. "Oh, wait! What?! You thought the stages would be better shot with 9 round mags so you left the 10 rounders at home...whooops, my bad. You did see the caveat online where the stage designs/descriptions were subject to change, right?"

For ESP and SSP, you only need two mags. 10 + 10 = 20, max round count is 18. It's only the CDP guys who end up short going for the second mag on their belts (9 + 8 = 17).

It really is these unethical sorts who make shooting in IDPA a drag. Maybe somebody who lists ESP or SSP on their scoresheets and then puts down a magazine capacity = to just 9, should get a harder look by the SO's/MD's .

Which reminds me now, maybe the shooter should be locked in to submitting his magazine capacity on the match entry form. And then the match staff could have the labels already printed out with "Mag capacity = 8", let's say. That way all the labels would have the same mag capacity written on them. I don't know how closely the stats people look at the mag capacity numbers written from one stage to the next.

This post has been edited by persona non grata: Jun 4 2009, 09:19 AM

[Storm52]

At a recent sanctioned match, there was a rule interpretation made that seemed odd, and I wanted to get some other opinions.

The issue came up with a SSP shooter (not me) that had 10 mags, 5 were 10 round and 5 were 17 round magazines. The SO during the equipment check before the start of the match told the shooter that he can't mix 10 rounders and high-cap magazines. That the shooter must use the EXACT same capacity mags through-out the match.

Looking at the rulebook ( http://www.idpa.com/Documents/IDPARuleBook2005.pdf ), on page 19-20 it states:

G. Be loaded to the division capacity of ten (10) rounds in the magazine plus one (1) round in the chamber. Should division capacity not be achievable because of lower magazine capacity, load to maximum mechanical capacity of magazine plus one (1) round in the chamber. Competitors must use the same capacity magazines through out the competition. (Example: if you start with a 9 round magazine, you must use that capacity magazine throughout the match).

I think I understand the intent, that if you start the match with magazines that load X number of rounds, you must load X number of rounds through-out the match. I understand that you don't want shooters starting with 8, 9, or maybe 7 to get a favorable point for a reload in a particular stage. However, should it matter whether I load 10 rounds in a 10 round mag or 10 rounds in a 17 round mag?

I am still in a heavy learning curve getting back into the sport, IDPA particularly. In prepartory mode I printed the rule book and spent time reading and asking questions. I think the SO made the proper call based on how the rule is written. The wording literally indicates you are handicapped to using the exact capacity magazines as the competitor started with. The example says you must use that capacity magazine throughout...It does not say you must load only 9 rounds in subsequent magazines regardless of maximum mechanical capacity. It doesn't say that you must use that round count throughout or use that number of rounds IN magazines regardless of capacity. It states that capacity magazine, which to me says the maximum capacity of the magazine. If you start with a 7, 8 or 9 round mag the maximum mechanical capacity is set by the starting magazine. If you have a 12 round mag that fits the box and you start with that mag then you are allowed to load 10 + 1 for the initial mag and 10 rounds for all others. The 10 round is based on division capacity IN the magazine.
Again, still real new but given there are no addendums or interpretations provided to the Book, I have to use the literal meaning, regardless of intent.
My 2¢

[PHolsted]

Again, still real new but given there are no addendums or interpretations provided to the Book, I have to use the literal meaning, regardless of intent.
My 2¢

Even being new you may find yourself getting a 20 second FTDR. Like it or not this sport is based on intent and not written rules.

Not sure that sounds good but that is the way it is. And this has been discussed time and time again. There has been talk several times to HQ about adding a section to the online rule book when HQ makes a decision on a ruling but to date it still has not happened.

So as to the original question that was asked what was the intent when Bill Wilson and others sit down and wrote the rules did they mean by this. There intent was that competitors not come up to a stage and say " If I start out with a 9 round mag I will run dry here and then reload and finish the stage a little faster than everyone else that may be using a 10 round mag. Then go to the next stage and say well a 9 rounds will hurt me here so let me use my 10 rounder."

This sport was never intended to be an equipment race and I feel the founders let everyone know that in the beginning. If you allow competitors to have this option then most of them would feel the need to be competitive they would have to have all of the different types of mags with a different mag capacity.

This post has been edited by PHolsted: Jun 4 2009, 12:30 PM

[Storm52]

That explanation makes sense, when you toss in intent. The intent was to prevent gaming the stages with the use of different capacity magazines. I truly understand the purpose of IDPA and taking equipment/modifications out of the equation. I do think a section devoted to official interpretations that have been provided would be beneficial. A decision or issue raised in NW, NE, SW etc may not be understood or received by everyone that may have a similiar incident. Unless the question came up in RO/SO training, there is no official stance. Thus the original question from Russ.
Sincerely, thank you for enlightening me!