[remoandiris]

Anyone else want USPSA to start a provisional pistol-caliber carbine division? I'm sure many of us find shooting carbines a lot of fun, but don't get to do it much in competition other than in 3-gun matches. If you already have a .223 AR-15, all you need is a new upper and a mag block. For under a grand, you have a different gun you can shoot at anything you can shoot your pistol at.

I know there are several local clubs who don't mind competitors using pistol carbines. And, with 9mm cheaper than .223, this could bring more carbine users into the sport.

[Joe4d]

I like pistols, I like building pistols, I like shooting pistol matches. I dont want to shoot rifles, If I did I would go to 3 gun or multi gun matches. Plenty of them out there. we dont need to change pistol matches.

[fourtrax]

+1 Joe4d. nuff said.

[Alwaystryin]

The more multi gun the better. Just pistol, all the time, gets boring.

remoandiris, on May 31 2009, 04:50 PM, said:

Anyone else want USPSA to start a provisional pistol-caliber carbine division?

[persona non grata]

I think if you really, really read the current USPSA 3 gun rules, you can shoot a 9mm AR or a Beretta CX4 Storm in 9mm, now in 3 gun. It's just that if you go to a bigger match with (steel??) targets at 100 yards or farther, you'll be screwed. I think as the rules stand now the minimum is a .224 " caliber and at least a 150 PF... of course, you might have to reload 9mm to get it going that fast out of a 16 inch or longer barrel and 9mm is like, what? .355" caliber, I think. It does make scoring easier though instead of looking for little .22 caliber holes in cardboard.

[WRanger]

Don't know why anyone would think pistol caliber carbines "change" a pistol match. Same course, same match... someone shoots a carbine instead of a pistol. Doesn't take any more time. I've been on both sides... shooting a carbine and shooting a pistol. The only problems seen are when a shooter is allowed to shoot both in a squad. Pick one and everything goes smoothly.

[Patrick Sweeney]

Our club has had a Pistol Caliber Carbine division for a number of years now. Interestingly, a good shooter with a PCC can often make Open shooters look like slowpokes.

One shooter shooting both on a squad can really slow things down, though.

[Flexmoney]

Patrick Sweeney, on Jun 1 2009, 11:41 AM, said:

Interestingly, a good shooter with a PCC can often make Open shooters look like slowpokes.

Hmmmmm....

[hitman]

My home club has been running PCC for years as well, infact we have even extended it to IDPA.

[UW Mitch]

NWPPA IDPA club often has a "side stage" at the end of their matches - some months rifle, some months shotgun, some months bug. That way the folks who want something different stick around after, but it doesn't slow down the main match. Don't see why this couldn't be done at the end of a USPSA match.

~Mitch

[Joe4d]

UW Mitch, on Jun 1 2009, 03:03 PM, said:

NWPPA IDPA club often has a "side stage" at the end of their matches - some months rifle, some months shotgun, some months bug. That way the folks who want something different stick around after, but it doesn't slow down the main match. Don't see why this couldn't be done at the end of a USPSA match.

~Mitch

If done this way I wouldnt mind, but then it wouldnt be a carbine division it would be a different match after the match. It also wouldnt make much of a difference if people only shot carbines; However I have never seen it done either way, I have seen it incorporated as part of the match with a small percentage of people shooting rifles in addition to pistols, it bogs down the whole match with people switching back and forth. It is also against the current rule book. No local rules are allowed. If you are hosting a USPSA pistol match you are not allowed to make up your own rules. Of course a brief review of Open doesnt specifically say handgun so I guess if you could design a holster that meets the criteria you could shoot one in open.
Again I have to ask Why ? There are plenty of 3 gun and multi gin events around.

[ima45dv8]

Joe4d, on Jun 1 2009, 04:36 PM, said:

There are plenty of 3 gun and multi gin events around.

That should boost attendance.

[remoandiris]

Joe4d, on May 31 2009, 08:07 PM, said:

I like pistols, I like building pistols, I like shooting pistol matches. I dont want to shoot rifles, If I did I would go to 3 gun or multi gun matches. Plenty of them out there. we dont need to change pistol matches.

I like shooting pistols, too. But, it is nice to shoot something different. And, there may be plenty of 3 or multi-gun events where you live, but that is not the case for everyone.

I am NOT advocating someone shoot in 2 divisions in 1 match. Why would someone be allowed to shoot an open pistol and a production pistol in the same match? They aren't at any match I ever attended, except a local steel match.

Carbines were created for close quarters combat, were they not? Same thing pistols were designed for, right? Seems to me they both could have a place at the USPSA table. And, the more people we get to the range, the better for our sport...especially in the current political climate.

[Larry White]

Our local club has a carbine match once a month, non USPSA and it has a pcc division. One of our better match turn outs. We also let the diehards shoot thier pistols if they wish. USPSA has enough or too many divisons as it is. Lets not dilute it more that it is.-------------Larry

[Spray_N_Prey]

Larry White, on Jun 1 2009, 06:22 PM, said:

Our local club has a carbine match once a month, non USPSA and it has a pcc division. One of our better match turn outs. We also let the diehards shoot thier pistols if they wish. USPSA has enough or too many divisons as it is. Lets not dilute it more that it is.-------------Larry

+1

[CocoBolo]

+1

I shoot carbine and 3 gun matches. I won a carbine match, with the Wife's Marlin Camp 9. Have not won with my AR with optics comp etc. So they can be run fast.

[Pat Harrison]

Patrick Sweeney, on Jun 1 2009, 11:41 AM, said:

Our club has had a Pistol Caliber Carbine division for a number of years now. Interestingly, a good shooter with a PCC can often make Open shooters look like slowpokes.

One club I belong to started that years ago, right after Cameron Hopkins infamous article about "Offensive Pistols"
Some of the Tacticool shhoters were very offended by the article and its suggestion that Open guns could match or beat Sub guns. No game gun could beat their MP-5's!!!
Funny enough, we always, ALWAYS, did. Of course this was before you tended to see red dot sights on SMG's, but they were on all our Open guns!

[uscbigdawg]

Spray_N_Prey, on Jun 2 2009, 11:04 AM, said:

Larry White, on Jun 1 2009, 06:22 PM, said:

Our local club has a carbine match once a month, non USPSA and it has a pcc division. One of our better match turn outs. We also let the diehards shoot thier pistols if they wish. USPSA has enough or too many divisons as it is. Lets not dilute it more that it is.-------------Larry

+1

Amen.

[remoandiris]

uscbigdawg, on Jun 2 2009, 03:50 PM, said:

Spray_N_Prey, on Jun 2 2009, 11:04 AM, said:

Larry White, on Jun 1 2009, 06:22 PM, said:

Our local club has a carbine match once a month, non USPSA and it has a pcc division. One of our better match turn outs. We also let the diehards shoot thier pistols if they wish. USPSA has enough or too many divisons as it is. Lets not dilute it more that it is.-------------Larry

+1

Amen.

I'm not that smart, so please explain this to a dummy...how is getting more people out shooting an action event diluting anything? I realize you guys aren't being elitist, but I don't see how anything is being diluted. Maybe I'm just dense. How many divisions are "too many"?

[Nik Habicht]

remoandiris, on Jun 2 2009, 06:21 PM, said:

I'm not that smart, so please explain this to a dummy...how is getting more people out shooting an action event diluting anything? I realize you guys aren't being elitist, but I don't see how anything is being diluted. Maybe I'm just dense. How many divisions are "too many"?

When you get one guy in a class in a division at a match --- that's not always fun.....

The most fun I've ever had at a match was competing locally for High C (and now High in Production with two different groups of friends. The first group was all about the trash talking; the second group is slightly more polite --- but we take very different approaches to some of the stages. In the end we all push each other a little to become better, and have a blast to boot....

[TMC]

I don't know that we need a USPSA recognized division but it sounds like allot of fun and can't hurt to get more people out to shoot.

Why would one guy shooting both on the same squad slow things down? It's no different than having one more person on the squad. It shouldn't take longer to shoot a stage with a rifle than a pistol. Our local club had 91 shooters at the last match. It was 5 squads of 18, one more person wouldn't have changed things.

I think if the person is shooting a pistol for score and a carbine for fun he should shoot the course with his pistol first.

My .02

[uscbigdawg]

Too many divisions now and having ANOTHER, basically seperate match is beyond overkill. I'm all for bringing more folks in, but let's try filling the divisions we have. While there are new folks coming in all the time, what I see is a lot of the same folks just switching divisions for the sake of something new.

As for the second gun in a match, as long as the shooter is using his pistol first, doing squad duties and has his crap ready to go, I'm not opposed to letting them get some trigger time in. I've done this once or twice in shooting my AR on pistol stages before bigger 3-Gun matches.

Rich

[Sarge]

Afew of our matches were 80+ shooters. True that one guy wanting to double dip would be ok but what about 20 or 25. Thats 100+ or so and way way too long for the other shooters to sit around and wait for. I am new to the sport and I could never be accused of being elitist but when I signed up I was hoping for matches of maybe 30 or 40 shooters at the local level not an all day event with 100.

[Joe4d]

uscbigdawg, on Jun 2 2009, 07:05 PM, said:

Too many divisions now and having ANOTHER, basically seperate match is beyond overkill. I'm all for bringing more folks in, but let's try filling the divisions we have. While there are new folks coming in all the time, what I see is a lot of the same folks just switching divisions for the sake of something new.

As for the second gun in a match, as long as the shooter is using his pistol first, doing squad duties and has his crap ready to go, I'm not opposed to letting them get some trigger time in. I've done this once or twice in shooting my AR on pistol stages before bigger 3-Gun matches.

Rich

Thats just it, they wont be ready and dont help paste.

[remoandiris]

Joe4d, on Jun 2 2009, 08:40 PM, said:

uscbigdawg, on Jun 2 2009, 07:05 PM, said:

Too many divisions now and having ANOTHER, basically seperate match is beyond overkill. I'm all for bringing more folks in, but let's try filling the divisions we have. While there are new folks coming in all the time, what I see is a lot of the same folks just switching divisions for the sake of something new.

As for the second gun in a match, as long as the shooter is using his pistol first, doing squad duties and has his crap ready to go, I'm not opposed to letting them get some trigger time in. I've done this once or twice in shooting my AR on pistol stages before bigger 3-Gun matches.

Rich

Thats just it, they wont be ready and dont help paste.

People may get bored with one division and want to switch things up. I'm a Glock 17 guy. That is the only pistol I want to shoot, but that is me. The new carbine I have is a hoot and there are no 3-gun matches near me. So, what do I do? Suffer with it? I don't think that is the right answer either.

As I said earlier in the thread, I haven't seen anyone shoot two guns in one match. I see no reason a pistol-caliber carbine division would be any different. The person registers and pays to shoot one gun...the carbine. If the match director allows people to shoot multiple guns, that is the MDs call. Don't understand why they would allow that, though.

If people aren't helping work the stage, it has nothing to do with what they're shooting and everything to do with them being an ass. Lose their scoresheet once and see if they screw off again.