[cold]

So today a shooter who had JUST TAKEN AND PASSED the IDPA SO test, went first on a stage, he said after he completed the stage that he forgot to turn his crimson trace laser grips laser off.

He shot the first 4 targets (2 rounds per target) using the CT laser, I did not see the last 3 as he was behind something and the targets were not in my view. (7 targets total, 2 shots per target , not limited).

He did not get assessed anything, by the senior SO's there, nor did any of the other SO's who just passed the test (all of us there had) suggested anything.


I pointed it to the other SO's/shooters watching as he shot T2-T3 and T4 with the laser and they were a bit shocked and knew it was not legal in IDPA.

I pointed it out to both shooter and SO behind shooter when he made safe.

Since they did not asses him a FTDR or procedural anything, what would have been the proper thing to do?

I suggested a FTDR but that did not happen.

I am a bit miffed as all other shooters in this guys classification/division did not have the same advantage.

Then again I told myself its just a game.

What say you?

This post has been edited by cold: 30 May 2009 - 08:46 PM

[THellURider]

2 to the chest.


Well, I would think they should have been assessed; however, is a laser really much of an advantage? I haven't shot with a laser in years but but I think it would slow me down.

[Chris Keen]

Sounds like you should go out and buy a laser.

[steel1212]

FTDR at least in this instance. That would be like shooting with a carry comp or something. Doesn't matter if it helped him or not, you can't bump to open in IDPA.

[VegasOPM]

It should have been either an FTDR or a no score for using illegal equipment. At the club level though, I would just chalk it up to the guy pulling a bonehead bar. If he does it again, then raise Cain.

[Steve J]

Illegal equipment, yes, but I had a guy who shot the first stage with a laser. After ULSC, I started to tell him about it, and he immediately said, "yes, it surprised the crap out of me. I though I had it turned off". Local match. Honest mistake. No competitive advantage (just the opposite). No penalty in this case IMHO.

[Joe4d]

Havent IDPA Match officials figured out why so many people from other sports wont shoot IDPA ? This is a prime example. Match officials refusing to follow the rules. This is a FTDR for illegal equipment. It doesnt matter if it is a local match or the National Championship the same rules should be followed.

[Steve J]

Joe4d, on May 31 2009, 06:29 AM, said:

Havent IDPA Match officials figured out why so many people from other sports wont shoot IDPA ? This is a prime example. Match officials refusing to follow the rules. This is a FTDR for illegal equipment. It doesnt matter if it is a local match or the National Championship the same rules should be followed.

That's a pretty broad brush. I've seen plenty of people at "other sports'" matches with illegal equipment (people who should know better) and MDs/RMs who don't care and I've seen plenty of people from "other sports" who insist on using illegal equipment at the local IDPA matches for trigger time.

[nwb01]

Joe4d, on May 31 2009, 07:29 AM, said:

Havent IDPA Match officials figured out why so many people from other sports wont shoot IDPA ? This is a prime example. Match officials refusing to follow the rules. This is a FTDR for illegal equipment. It doesnt matter if it is a local match or the National Championship the same rules should be followed.

Agreed............As poor as it may be, there is a rule book for a reason!!!!

[boo radley]

It should probably *should* have been an FTDR, but I can easily understand how and why a local match might not assess one, especially since it probably hurt the shooter who's thinking 'WTF??" as he's shooting.

I'm no IDPA evangelist, but I agree 100% with Steve J -- I've seen plenty of rules broken/ignored/not been aware of in 'other' practical shooting competitions to think any organization is superior at enforcement.

[LPatterson]

What ever happened to personal integrity for the SO/RO/RM/MD whom ever was supposed to enforce the rules for the sport? I know people break rules all the time, the only time I drive the speed limit is when I am behind someone I can't pass. But we are talking about people appointed/selected to enforce rules in a sporting event who refuse to do their job. So without bashing one sport against another, are USPSA shooters following the rules because they are better written than IDPA? Or ......

[h2osport]

One of the fellas I practice with has a lasermax in his glock that accidentally comes on sometimes when he is shooting a course. I tell him that if it happens in a match(USPSA) He is going to be put in open. He just says OH Well. I really do not think he would care. It is his carry gun, he does not want to take the Lasermax out for every match. Unless it is a low light situation, it really is a disadvantage to have the laser.

I am often dismayed by both the RO/SO who does not want to be the bad guy by making the call and also by the competitor who would complain about the call. Both know the rules! If they are not followed than they will be enforced. End of story.

Randy

[Shootingirons45]

It ought to hve been a FTDR. However, I'm not sure that the peanut gallery ought to be the ones pointing out these sort of things. I'd also say that if it were me that had made the infraction I'd have given myself up for a FTDR whether the SO had seen it or not. Personally I think it's much ado about nothing.

[RobMoore]

In pointing to the FTDR for "illegal equipment", don't forget about the whole sentence.

PC 1. Failure To Do Right (FTDR):

...C. Is assessed for unsportsmanlike conduct, unfair actions,
or the use of illegal equipment, which, in the opinion of the
MD, tends to make a travesty of the defensive shooting
sport.

The shooter made a mistake in forgetting to turn it off. Some people have lasers on their defense guns. I don't believe he intended to gain a competitive advantage through its use.

Give him the +3 for

PP 1. Procedural Error (PE):
A. Adds three (3) seconds per infraction.
B. Is assessed when the competitor does not follow the
procedures set forth in the CoF description or when a
competitor breaks a competition rule.

If it happened again, I'd bang on the big 20.

This post has been edited by RobMoore: 31 May 2009 - 12:14 PM

[nwb01]

He didn't break a "competition rule" he used "illegal equipment" . It is pretty clear in a rule book that is usually fairly cloudy, looks like a FTDR to me.

This post has been edited by nwb01: 31 May 2009 - 02:41 PM

[Steve J]

nwb01, on May 31 2009, 02:50 PM, said:

He didn't break a "competition rule" he used "illegal equipment" . It is pretty clear in a rule but that is usually fairly cloudy, looks like a FTDR to me.

... which in the opinion of the MD... That right there says that it is never a hard and fast mandatory FTDR, and as an MD I would not award one for an isolated "oopsy."

Y'all are pretty harsh on the internet. I have to wonder if you're really that harsh on the ground as an MD.

[JeffWard]

h2osport, on May 31 2009, 11:57 AM, said:

One of the fellas I practice with has a lasermax in his glock that accidentally comes on sometimes when he is shooting a course. I tell him that if it happens in a match(USPSA) He is going to be put in open. He just says OH Well. I really do not think he would care. It is his carry gun, he does not want to take the Lasermax out for every match. Unless it is a low light situation, it really is a disadvantage to have the laser.

I am often dismayed by both the RO/SO who does not want to be the bad guy by making the call and also by the competitor who would complain about the call. Both know the rules! If they are not followed than they will be enforced. End of story.

Randy

Put in Open???

Can I shoot with a laser in Open????

If I could (in USPSA), I'd do it in a second!!!!!

I have lasers on my carry guns and they are BRUTALLY fast. I can be shooting one target with my eyes tracking to the next. No sight-alignment required... Paint-and-Pull!!

Jeff

[cold]

I think the rule book is there for a reason but I guess, for me, I was just shocked since everyone there had just taken the SO class, passed and now did not even want to properly asses the penalty just for the practice of it. They did not even decide what it would be IF they wanted to give him one, they just moved on and did not care.
Again thats what shocked me more then the laser really.

This post has been edited by cold: 31 May 2009 - 01:47 PM

[shred]

JeffWard, on May 31 2009, 03:13 PM, said:

Put in Open???

Can I shoot with a laser in Open????

If I could (in USPSA), I'd do it in a second!!!!!

I have lasers on my carry guns and they are BRUTALLY fast. I can be shooting one target with my eyes tracking to the next. No sight-alignment required... Paint-and-Pull!!

Jeff

Yes, you can shoot a laser in USPSA Open.

Many people have, though I'd say almost all of them that are serious switch to a dot sight because you get the same no-sight-alignment speed without the downside of trying to find a laser dot wandering around the backstop somewhere.

[Chris Keen]

JeffWard, on May 31 2009, 04:13 PM, said:

Put in Open???

Can I shoot with a laser in Open????

If I could (in USPSA), I'd do it in a second!!!!!

I have lasers on my carry guns and they are BRUTALLY fast. I can be shooting one target with my eyes tracking to the next. No sight-alignment required... Paint-and-Pull!!

Jeff

Yes you can. Go for it.

[Joe4d]

So what is "harsh" recording the proper earned penalties ? or by not recording them you have basically penalized everyone else in the match that followed the rules. The only way a game can be played fairly is if the rules are followed and evforced on everyone. Imagine the chaos if a baseball ump "gave a runner a break" when he only got thrown out on first by a step. Giving a shooter a break penalizes everyone else.

[RobMoore]

Thats the thing, Joe, some of us don't see it as giving the shooter a break to not penalize with the FTDR. You say "proper earned penalty". I disagree. I don't see the offense as falling under the FTDR example.

I say it trivializes the purpose of the FTDR to use it on such a small "offense". It is meant as a heavy handed response to a shooter who is trying to get away with something that a mere 3 second penalty isn't a sufficient enough response to.

[JeffWard]

Chris Keen, on May 31 2009, 04:50 PM, said:

JeffWard, on May 31 2009, 04:13 PM, said:

Put in Open???

Can I shoot with a laser in Open????

If I could (in USPSA), I'd do it in a second!!!!!

I have lasers on my carry guns and they are BRUTALLY fast. I can be shooting one target with my eyes tracking to the next. No sight-alignment required... Paint-and-Pull!!

Jeff

Yes you can. Go for it.

So I could shoot my M&P PRO, cranked up to 9mm Major, with a Crimson Trace Laser, magwell, and 170/140mm mags???? Sounds like a low-buck "Open Gun"! Anybody got a good threaded barrel/comp for a 5" M&P??? LOL

I know Dan Burwell runs an Open M&P 9mm...

JeffWard

This post has been edited by JeffWard: 31 May 2009 - 02:26 PM

[nwb01]

Steve J, on May 31 2009, 04:05 PM, said:

nwb01, on May 31 2009, 02:50 PM, said:

He didn't break a "competition rule" he used "illegal equipment" . It is pretty clear in a rule book that is usually fairly cloudy, looks like a FTDR to me.

... which in the opinion of the MD... That right there says that it is never a hard and fast mandatory FTDR, and as an MD I would not award one for an isolated "oopsy."

Y'all are pretty harsh on the internet. I have to wonder if you're really that harsh on the ground as an MD.

So we pick and choose which rules we wanna enforce and when we enforce them......Hmmm... Why even have a rule book?

I am not a match director but I am an SO. Although, I do not have a lot of SO experience, I do have alot of IDPA experience competition experience. A rule is a rule and they need to be followed per the rule book, that is why it was written.

Joe4d, on May 31 2009, 05:00 PM, said:

So what is "harsh" recording the proper earned penalties ? or by not recording them you have basically penalized everyone else in the match that followed the rules. The only way a game can be played fairly is if the rules are followed and evforced on everyone. Imagine the chaos if a baseball ump "gave a runner a break" when he only got thrown out on first by a step. Giving a shooter a break penalizes everyone else.

+1 To that !

Not following the rules is the real travesty to the sport.

[RobMoore]

If it is so cut and dry, why did they include the phrase about the opinion of the MD?