[Joe4d]

I am wondering why the basic rule of firearm safety concerning muzzle awareness, or the dont point it at what you wouldnt want destroyed, or heck even some semblance of a 180 rule doesnt apply at skeet and trap ranges. It was kinda of ironic to be sitting in a safety class (USPSA) in a classroom bordering a skeet range and contantly seeing shotguns pointed at me, pointed up range, and pointed at each other. This was actually some kinda match going on. I dont think this is an isolated incident because the same behavior was prevalent at the trap range next to the pistol range in Hawaii. Is it just me or is it the attitude since we are only shooting bird shot so it doesnt matter.

[sperman]

Joe4d, on May 20 2009, 07:42 AM, said:

I am wondering why the basic rule of firearm safety concerning muzzle awareness, or the dont point it at what you wouldnt want destroyed, or heck even some semblance of a 180 rule doesnt apply at skeet and trap ranges. It was kinda of ironic to be sitting in a safety class (USPSA) in a classroom bordering a skeet range and contantly seeing shotguns pointed at me, pointed up range, and pointed at each other. This was actually some kinda match going on. I dont think this is an isolated incident because the same behavior was prevalent at the trap range next to the pistol range in Hawaii. Is it just me or is it the attitude since we are only shooting bird shot so it doesnt matter.

Some friends and I went trap shooting for the first time. The guy running the button was really helpful and worked with us on fundamentals and technique. I just about walked off the range when he went to one of my buddy's, grabbed the end of the barrel and stuck it in his face so he could sight back up the gun to see how my friends had was laying against the stock.

[AlamoShooter]

Evolutions happens , I remember when it was hoopla at two of the ranges when the shooter could not take their beer out onto the field wile they were shooting. the new rule was they had to leave it back in the rear wile they shot.
That was not all that long ago. At the same clubs I never did have a gun pointed at me though

I have Sean good intention wanna bees that have " watched lessons buy good instructors " move out in front of the barrel. For every competent instructor 10 more watch from a distance and think they know how to help.

Part of instructing is to help with fit and how the shooters eye lines up on the gun. The instructor will in fact move to sight down the barrel from the muz. But! it is /should be don only in a controlled -isolated area = and only after a ritual of removing shells from the pockets clearing the action.
Its not always a requirement to help with -Fit-

Ans yes I know how you feel , I want to take a video and document some of it. some times its as bad as going to a gun show.

[The Antichrome]

Its not just you...things are more lax on the shotgun fields. It bothers me too.

However, in Sporting Clays, we still have a great safety record, because the ranges are cold, guns are only to be loaded just before shooting that specific shot(s) and all actions are kept open. Guns may only be loaded and actions closed when the gun is over the front bar of the shooting stand. Since 99.999% of the guns are over and unders; its easy to see the open actions. You'll have barrels pointed at you all day long, but they'll be on opened guns.

The beer and gun combo bothers me the most. But from my observations, we're more likely to see a golf cart crash, rather than a negligent discharge.

Now, down on the skeet/trap fields, theres no telling what goes on...its supposed to be the same way as it is out on the SC course. But recent events have shown that its not.
There was a very popular high school trap shooting program at my local club. Every kid is supposed to have a set of adult eyes on him, and only him, whenever he is holding a gun. Even with this 1/1 ratio, a kid managed to have a ND into the concrete pad right beside his foot. He injured himself and several others with both birdshot and chunks of concrete. There is no longer a high school trap program here. This will have a lasting effect.

In my Sporting Clays league, I'm the 'damn pistol shooter' who's kinda fussy about how they do things.
I take some grief for it, so be it.

Sorry I veered off into into a rant.
It bothers me too, you're not the only one.

[sperman]

AlamoShooter, on May 20 2009, 09:41 AM, said:

Evolutions happens , I remember when it was hoopla at two of the ranges when the shooter could not take their beer out onto the field wile they were shooting. the new rule was they had to leave it back in the rear wile they shot.
That was not all that long ago. At the same clubs I never did have a gun pointed at me though

I have Sean good intention wanna bees that have " watched lessons buy good instructors " move out in front of the barrel. For every competent instructor 10 more watch from a distance and think they know how to help.

Part of instructing is to help with fit and how the shooters eye lines up on the gun. The instructor will in fact move to sight down the barrel from the muz. But! it is /should be don only in a controlled -isolated area = and only after a ritual of removing shells from the pockets clearing the action.
Its not always a requirement to help with -Fit-

Ans yes I know how you feel , I want to take a video and document some of it. some times its as bad as going to a gun show.

Until I'm OK with my head being destroyed, it will never intentionally be on the other end of the barrel.

[ranger]

Yes, the shotgun sports community does not have the firearm safety awareness of USPSA shooters. I have witnessed (and yes, corrected) numerous shotgun shooters step out of the stand with a closed gun/bolt closed and sweep the group behind the stand. I have seen this at multiple locations in the Southeast at major tournaments. They would be DQ'd in USPSA.

[jasond]

At the local trap match, a new shooter had a fail to feed with an auto (imagine that), turned around to hear what the scorekeeper was telling him, and continued rotating back to downrange, full 360, while trying to get the round to chamber. Yikes!

An "official" talked to him, after I discretely asked him to. It just doesn't seem to be a big deal to the shotgunners. I don't mind opened doubles pointed every which way so much, though.

I shoot silhouette also, and we use open bolt flags whenever not shooting, carry them muzzle high, etc. so it's pretty safe. I don't think any game can match USPSA's protocol, though.

[Seth]

I got lectured at a Sport Clays event I shot for taking too long on the line... I was waiting for a LAMR command. Its just different. I prefer the USPSA super anal retentive rules. Feels warmer and fuzzier. No surprises.

[ranger]

This thread makes me realize how valuable the RO are in USPSA. Thanks to all the ROs who keep us safe!

[2alpha]

I don't disagree that shotgun ranges seem to have lax safety rules, and in some cases they do. BUT>>Totally different sports and totally different risks.

WE run around with 1lb triggers and 30 rounds in our guns with the safety off!!!! How do you think that sounds to a shotgun shooter who you think is unsafe because he swings his broke down ou around and you get swept? Or like many USPSA shooters have done, go off on a trap shooter because he rests the muzzle of his open ou on his toe? You don't go to a go kart track and expect Formula One Safety Precautions do you?

Now if your really want the sh^&t scared out of you go to a cowboy shoot and have the guys across the table reloading their revolvers!!!

[jasond]

My club has nice little rubber pads to rest my O/U on instead of using my shoe! Really nice, because I normally show up in flip flops.

When everyone is on the line, you just load up, nobody even says "range is hot" or anything. They've learned to tell me to load up because I'll look over my shoulder at the scorekeeper until he does.

There's often someone in the traphouse refilling the machine!

[shopgun]

We had an incident at a local trap/skeet range a few years back. The shooter was dropping his hammers on "snap caps" that weren't. His buddy got a 20 ga. skeet load in the butt. Luckily it wasn't life threatening for the target.

[Irishlad]

IMO, the level of safety "awareness" is much greater with pistol than shotgun, no doubt.
But, basic rules are the same.

At big clay target shoots, skeet and trap for example, you have a lot of people "hot". 5 to 6 shooters on a squad or on a pad waiting to shoot. Running maybe 10- 50 fields and a lot of people to watch. Add shooters coming and going to the field, their cars and no "holsters" for shotguns.

O/U's are much safer in that regard. They should always be open, always, when not shooting on the station or on a rack.

The last "accident" I read about was a "basic firearm" safety rule broken that applies to all types of firearms...in the parking lot of course. Maybe the most dangerous place at a gun club....except the bar.

[Joe4d]

2alpha, on May 21 2009, 09:12 PM, said:

I don't disagree that shotgun ranges seem to have lax safety rules, and in some cases they do. BUT>>Totally different sports and totally different risks.

WE run around with 1lb triggers and 30 rounds in our guns with the safety off!!!! How do you think that sounds to a shotgun shooter who you think is unsafe because he swings his broke down ou around and you get swept? Or like many USPSA shooters have done, go off on a trap shooter because he rests the muzzle of his open ou on his toe? You don't go to a go kart track and expect Formula One Safety Precautions do you?

Now if your really want the sh^&t scared out of you go to a cowboy shoot and have the guys across the table reloading their revolvers!!!

I dont care what sport you are shooting,
Dont point the gun at something you arnt willing to destroy is pretty much rule number 1.
We may run around but we dont do it pointing the guns at eachother.

[ranger]

Just shot a round of sporting clays at a local club. They were having a skeet tournament too. An established skeet shooter with an over/under shot his true pair and then stepped out of the station sweeping his squad, the spectators, and club house. Not a word said by anyone. Yes, it was an over/under, yes it can only hold two shells, yes it now holds two empty hulls, the principle is the same.

[Tom Freeman]

I have shot a lot at different Skeet/Trap/SC ranges and none were unsafe. Its just that IPSC/USPSA/IDPA is so far at the other end of the safety spectrum its is easy to think some clay games are boderline unsafe.

Its just a different mindset. I still wince (I say muzzle/finger to myself) sometimes at the things I see, but its just the IPSC shooter in me.

[ranger]

Tom Freeman, on May 30 2009, 05:02 PM, said:

I have shot a lot at different Skeet/Trap/SC ranges and none were unsafe. Its just that IPSC/USPSA/IDPA is so far at the other end of the safety spectrum its is easy to think some clay games are boderline unsafe.

Its just a different mindset. I still wince (I say muzzle/finger to myself) sometimes at the things I see, but its just the IPSC shooter in me.

Agreed - the clay target sports are safe. They have adequate safety rules. Unfortunately, the shooters do not police themselves. There are individual clay shooters who do not follow all the safety rules. Seldom (ever?) is a shooter disciplined or "DQ'd". There is a dramatically different safety culture between Clay shooting sports and USPSA/IPSC.

[sperman]

Joe4d, on May 30 2009, 10:26 AM, said:

2alpha, on May 21 2009, 09:12 PM, said:

I don't disagree that shotgun ranges seem to have lax safety rules, and in some cases they do. BUT>>Totally different sports and totally different risks.

WE run around with 1lb triggers and 30 rounds in our guns with the safety off!!!! How do you think that sounds to a shotgun shooter who you think is unsafe because he swings his broke down ou around and you get swept? Or like many USPSA shooters have done, go off on a trap shooter because he rests the muzzle of his open ou on his toe? You don't go to a go kart track and expect Formula One Safety Precautions do you?

Now if your really want the sh^&t scared out of you go to a cowboy shoot and have the guys across the table reloading their revolvers!!!

I dont care what sport you are shooting,
Dont point the gun at something you arnt willing to destroy is pretty much rule number 1.
We may run around but we dont do it pointing the guns at eachother.

+1

I don't care if it's "unloaded." I don't care if the breech is open. If its the muzzle of a gun, don't point it at me.

[Joe4d]

I guess I did get my answer though, even here I am getting people making excuses for people violating rules I learned when I was 6 and got my Daisy Red Rider BB gun, then when I was 8 and got a .410 to carry around all day rabbit hunting while Granddad carried the ammo.

[PHolsted]

I just got some pics of someone that just blew a big hole in their foot. He was resting his barrel on his foot as he and his friends have always done.

I have always thought of the times I have been on a shot gun range that it always seem most people were a little to easy on muzzle discipline.

[Irishlad]

While pistol is more "strict", I've been shooting shotgun a long time and haven't seen many dangerous infractions.
Meaning, full or empty hulls in a gun off the shooting station. I have and I've seen others immediately warn a shooter for leaving the station with a closed gun, auto only, or an O/U not completely unloaded.

Only once have I seen a loaded gun sweep a crowd and, of course, a new shooter did it. Corrected immediately by the way...as people scurried out of the way.

Now, sweeping a body part with an empty gun is where people can take exception. With an open O/U off the shooting station, it's often put on a shoulder, a foot, etc because when you are not shooting, they are heavy!! So, in the act of raising the O/U to your shoulder, it's possible to "sweep" some feet and legs...depends. Bring it in "tighter" as you lift, and you are sweeping your own appendages.

[Joe4d]

"Only once have I seen a loaded gun sweep a crowd and, of course, a new shooter did it. Corrected immediately by the way...as people scurried out of the way. " Irishlad


Rule number 2, all guns are always loaded
I learned that one when I was 6 also

This post has been edited by Joe4d: 31 May 2009 - 06:02 AM

[Tangram]

Never let the muzzle cover anything that you are not willing to destroy.