[sperman]

I am building a Texas Star for one of the local clubs. I know the guys that shoot major matches will appreciate the opportunity to shoot this target more often, but some of the other shooters probably aren't going to be happy about it. Is there a legal way to make this a disappearing target so that those who want to can shoot it for points, and those that don't can skip it?

I think I read about a stage at one of the big matches this year where a popper closed a door on a port and Amidon ruled any targets that were only visible through the port were considered disappearing targets. If I recall, it was controversial, and I can't find anything in the rulebook that supports that opinion. Is there a legal way to do this?

[steel1212]

Personally if they can't hit it then they need the practice anyway. If they want to skip it let them, but they will take the penalty for doing so.

[Flexmoney]

The stage you are talking about was from one of the Texas matches (Double Tap). I think the thread on it was on the USPSA forum.


You don' t need to hide the Star from the shooters. Some might struggle with it at first, but...it's a good shooting test for them.

Put it the (likely) end of the stage. That way, the underclassmen won't get hung up/stuck on it earlier.

Make it so that it is out in the open (shooters get to go at it with a natural stance) at about 11-12y.

[JThompson]

sperman, on May 17 2009, 09:04 PM, said:

I am building a Texas Star for one of the local clubs. I know the guys that shoot major matches will appreciate the opportunity to shoot this target more often, but some of the other shooters probably aren't going to be happy about it. Is there a legal way to make this a disappearing target so that those who want to can shoot it for points, and those that don't can skip it?

I think I read about a stage at one of the big matches this year where a popper closed a door on a port and Amidon ruled any targets that were only visible through the port were considered disappearing targets. If I recall, it was controversial, and I can't find anything in the rulebook that supports that opinion. Is there a legal way to do this?

You could make it a NPM... Just use a port where after a popper is shot or a door is opened the port is covered and there is no other place to shoot the star. They will still be down the points though, but not the fte/s

[North]

don't worry about it. They need to learn to shoot the Texas star. I'm sure most will appreciate the challenge, but put it at the end of the stage.

[Joe4d]

I have never seen anyone "unhappy" about a Texas Star. usually they are the talk of the match. Build legal fair stages that are freestyle with several different answers to the challenge and let the shooters shoot. The minute you start thinking stages for or against certain shooters you no longer have fair stages. Think it up, make sure it is safe, make sure it is legal, and let em shoot.

[Franksremote]

North, on May 17 2009, 08:15 PM, said:

don't worry about it. They need to learn to shoot the Texas star. I'm sure most will appreciate the challenge, but put it at the end of the stage.

+1 You definately see them at matches large and small, sometimes surrounded by lots of no-shoots, but rarely setup at practice sessions (at those clubs that have practice sessions/days). I find that most folks complain about stages, props or positions that require them to use skills (weak hand, strong hand, TX Stars, etc.) that they never or rarely practice. They've gotta learn how to shoot the star sooner or later and in all reality, any other skills that they don't use often nor practice ever... My $0.02.

[Michael Flatley]

I like the look of the Texas Star. It looks like a good challenging shoot.

I am in the UK so I can’t get to shoot one so I would like to make one for our club.

As I am currently out of work time is not an issue. I have some bearings and shafts I can use as I made a double bobber recently. I have some plate or can get it locally, the welder is in the garage and I have a grinder to start chopping things so I am ready to start. However, my main issue is making the mechanism to hold the plates to the end of the spokes.

I would rather use a tried and tested method rather than making something that I think will work but then fails on me during a club comp!

If anyone has any photos or drawings showing the way the separating plates are held would you mind emailing one to me? I only need the details of the plate holder, the rest I will do my usual amount of over engineering on!

I will be using the Texas Star for shotgun.

If you are interested here are some links to things that I have been doing up to now. I only started shooting shotgun last May so you can see I have been busy. Unfortunately my being out of work means I need to do things that cost more in my time than it does on materials, hence the Texas Star project.

Thanks in advance for any help you can give.

Kind regards

Mick

Links

http://s638.photobuc...8/Mossberg_PSG/

http://www.youtube.c...re=channel_page

This post has been edited by Michael Flatley: 18 May 2009 - 03:28 AM

[Gary Stevens]

Michael Flatley, on May 18 2009, 06:26 AM, said:

I like the look of the Texas Star. It looks like a good challenging shoot.

I am in the UK so I can’t get to shoot one so I would like to make one for our club.

As I am currently out of work time is not an issue. I have some bearings and shafts I can use as I made a double bobber recently. I have some plate or can get it locally, the welder is in the garage and I have a grinder to start chopping things so I am ready to start. However, my main issue is making the mechanism to hold the plates to the end of the spokes.

I would rather use a tried and tested method rather than making something that I think will work but then fails on me during a club comp!

If anyone has any photos or drawings showing the way the separating plates are held would you mind emailing one to me? I only need the details of the plate holder, the rest I will do my usual amount of over engineering on!

I will be using the Texas Star for shotgun.

If you are interested here are some links to things that I have been doing up to now. I only started shooting shotgun last May so you can see I have been busy. Unfortunately my being out of work means I need to do things that cost more in my time than it does on materials, hence the Texas Star project.

Thanks in advance for any help you can give.

Kind regards

Mick

Links

http://s638.photobuc...8/Mossberg_PSG/

http://www.youtube.c...re=channel_page

The only issue I have with the Star is that our rules say a plate must fall or overturn when hit. On some stars I have seen plates hang on the star which is REF and requires a re-shoot.

The one's with only spring pressure holding the plates seem to work better, from my experience and observations.

Gary

[sperman]

For better or worse, we have a small group of loyal shooters who only shoot 1 or 2 local matches a month. They don't like being "challenged" quite as much as the rest of the shooters. I would prefer not to alienate them, but the majority will enjoy shooting the Star. If there is no legal way to do this they will have to shoot it or take the 50 point penalty. If someone chose not to engage this target, would it be 1 FTE or 5?

[ChuckS]

sperman, on May 18 2009, 06:53 AM, said:

For better or worse, we have a small group of loyal shooters who only shoot 1 or 2 local matches a month. They don't like being "challenged" quite as much as the rest of the shooters. I would prefer not to alienate them, but the majority will enjoy shooting the Star. If there is no legal way to do this they will have to shoot it or take the 50 point penalty. If someone chose not to engage this target, would it be 1 FTE or 5?

5

[JThompson]

sperman, on May 18 2009, 07:53 AM, said:

For better or worse, we have a small group of loyal shooters who only shoot 1 or 2 local matches a month. They don't like being "challenged" quite as much as the rest of the shooters. I would prefer not to alienate them, but the majority will enjoy shooting the Star. If there is no legal way to do this they will have to shoot it or take the 50 point penalty. If someone chose not to engage this target, would it be 1 FTE or 5?

I gave you a way around that Scott. It's possible to set it up where those guys might even be better off than someone who had problems with the star

remember points/time

JT

This post has been edited by JThompson: 18 May 2009 - 07:26 AM

[Alan Meek]

You could always introduce them to it by setting the star so it does not rotate for the first couple of matches and then "Free the Star"

Alan

[L-10_shooter]

At my local club there are quite a few people who see the star and start complaining about how much they are going to miss. All it is is a round plate rack, start at the top and work down, its not that hard. They need to shoot at it, it will make thme better shooters!

[Dan Burwell]

At our last match our Texas Star got a new nick name...... "The Death Star" after several guys unloaded 30+ rounds and still left a couple plates. They have all shot it before but when I moved it back to 17yds and had it so they could only shoot at one side of it due to a well placed wall with no shoots, some shooters had some "issues".

So if your guys don't want much of a challange do it like Flex said... 11-12 yds in the open.

[ChuckS]

Alan Meek, on May 18 2009, 07:29 AM, said:

You could always introduce them to it by setting the star so it does not rotate for the first couple of matches and then "Free the Star"

Alan

We had a stationary star at Norco Saturday and had the problems that Gary described. This star has been used for a long time. While not loved ( ) it was never problematic when allowed to rotate. After the third re-shoot we wound up treating them as steel challenge style hits. At least one of the guys who was having problems did chrono his ammo after the match and was making power factor (135 PF for a 147 Gr 9mm). This star has the dovetail for the plate to fit into with a strong spring pusing the tail into the slot. I guess it works better if it can move.

Later,
Chuck

[shred]

That's the trouble with the star-- it gets much easier to shoot the more experience you have with it, even if you aren't a particularly good shooter. So match directors start doing things like spinning it or putting it at 20 yards or half-no-shooting it or whatever to mess with the people that are used to it. The problem is that really hoses the newer shooters that don't have the experience. So much so that it can be really frustrating.

IMO the best thing to do with it at a local match if you have newbies and such is to leave it stationary near a logical end for the COF (doesn't have to be the best one, just not the first thing you have to do, so they can plan to end there and shoot whatever ammo they have left) at ~11-15 yards and let the hosers try and show off on it. Every extra shot they throw is another 3 match points and the best shooters always separate themselves on time and points.

[Lanzo]

sperman, on May 18 2009, 08:53 AM, said:

For better or worse, we have a small group of loyal shooters who only shoot 1 or 2 local matches a month. They don't like being "challenged" quite as much as the rest of the shooters. I would prefer not to alienate them, but the majority will enjoy shooting the Star. If there is no legal way to do this they will have to shoot it or take the 50 point penalty. If someone chose not to engage this target, would it be 1 FTE or 5?

If they only shoot local matches then why would they really care about being "challenged?" Sounds like they just like to shoot and go out a couple times locally to get the job done. I would think a person who cares about "being challenged" and how a star would affect their performance would care about getting out to some bigger matches to really compete...to truly test their skills and see where they sit among other skilled shooters.

In anything we do (shooting, life, etc)....you'll never be able please everyone. Do what's best for the group and they'll just kind of have to deal with it. It will improve their shooting in the long run and it will help more of your club memebers get some valued experience before they head out to bigger matches.

--Lanzo

[Flexmoney]

sperman, on May 18 2009, 09:53 AM, said:

For better or worse, we have a small group of loyal shooters who only shoot 1 or 2 local matches a month. They don't like being "challenged" quite as much as the rest of the shooters. I would prefer not to alienate them, but the majority will enjoy shooting the Star. If there is no legal way to do this they will have to shoot it or take the 50 point penalty. If someone chose not to engage this target, would it be 1 FTE or 5?

5

It's not "A" target...it is 5 targets...on a spinning plate rack.

Not engaging it (the 5 plates on the star) would be 5 FTE's + 5 Mikes + (-5) for not getting each of the Alphas for hitting the plates. (They'd be down 125pts for the stage. )

- Just let them shoot it. Ease them into it if you need to. Paint the bottom 4 plates as hard-cover the first time...and just give them the top plate to shoot at. Then add a plate the next time around...

- If you put it at the end of the stage, most shooters will dump one...maybe two...mags on it and call it done. As long as they shoot 5 or more shoots in the direction of the star...I'd have to consider all 5 plates as being "engaged" I think (hard to call that otherwise).

- Run it as a side-match for a while. $1 to shoot the star. Fastest time of the day wins the pot.

[Flexmoney]

Gary Stevens, on May 18 2009, 09:43 AM, said:

The only issue I have with the Star is that our rules say a plate must fall or overturn when hit. On some stars I have seen plates hang on the star which is REF and requires a re-shoot.

The one's with only spring pressure holding the plates seem to work better, from my experience and observations.

Gary

ChuckS, on May 18 2009, 10:58 AM, said:

We had a stationary star at Norco Saturday and had the problems that Gary described. This star has been used for a long time. While not loved ( ) it was never problematic when allowed to rotate. After the third re-shoot we wound up treating them as steel challenge style hits. At least one of the guys who was having problems did chrono his ammo after the match and was making power factor (135 PF for a 147 Gr 9mm). This star has the dovetail for the plate to fit into with a strong spring pusing the tail into the slot. I guess it works better if it can move.

Later,
Chuck

We just went through some of this at the local club. We have two stars from MGM (with the dovetails). MGM has been great to deal with, btw !

A couple of things...

- The star needs "leveled". This means in the front to back direction...the "clock face" of the star needs to be leveled.

- The spring needs to be putting good pressure on the plate. Our newest star...the spring was binding between the two metal tabs that hold it on. Those are put on with an impact wrench at the factory (I was told)...and probably suck those two tabs in on each other and bind the spring. Loosen that up so the spring is free to move.

- Our new star has slightly different plates (dovetail corners are radiused differently). And, different arms to go with those plates, I believe?

- If it is wet out...put down some card-board or something for the plates to fall on most of the time. That helps keep them out of the dirt and keeps the dovetails from getting clogged up.

- Figure out what works, then... Number the plates. Number the arms.

[Lanzo]

Flexmoney, on May 18 2009, 10:24 AM, said:

sperman, on May 18 2009, 09:53 AM, said:

For better or worse, we have a small group of loyal shooters who only shoot 1 or 2 local matches a month. They don't like being "challenged" quite as much as the rest of the shooters. I would prefer not to alienate them, but the majority will enjoy shooting the Star. If there is no legal way to do this they will have to shoot it or take the 50 point penalty. If someone chose not to engage this target, would it be 1 FTE or 5?

5

It's not "A" target...it is 5 targets...on a spinning plate rack.

Not engaging it (the 5 plates on the star) would be 5 FTE's + 5 Mikes + (-5) for not getting each of the Alphas for hitting the plates. (They'd be down 125pts for the stage. )

- Just let them shoot it. Ease them into it if you need to. Paint the bottom 4 plates as hard-cover the first time...and just give them the top plate to shoot at. Then add a plate the next time around...

- If you put it at the end of the stage, most shooters will dump one...maybe two...mags on it and call it done. As long as they shoot 5 or more shoots in the direction of the star...I'd have to consider all 5 plates as being "engaged" I think (hard to call that otherwise).

- Run it as a side-match for a while. $1 to shoot the star. Fastest time of the day wins the pot.

Flex,

I guess I just don't get it. The Star is part of our sport. If you don't want to shoot it or get P'ed because you have to or whatever, why even shoot the match in the first place? If the guy only shoots locally I can't see them complaining too much about shooting it, and even if they did, they'd get over it. What kind of guy gets pissed about something as dumb as that? I watched a couple people drop 2 or 3 mags at the Star at Area 6 and nobody complained about it.

When you put on a match I would think it's almost a responsibility to try to make it as close to Major matches as possible. If you see it there, you should try to incorporate it at the local level to give experience to people who actually shoot USPSA as a sport.

If your going to put on a USPSA match, put on a USPSA match. I hate it when people try to dumb down things to appease the masses. Or at least the few who want to ruin it for everyone else.

--Lanzo

[Flexmoney]

You make very good points.

I always suggest to Match Directors and stage designers that they "know their customers". And, then design shooting challenges that are challenging, but not back breakers. Properly done, stage design can lead shooters down the path of shooting better.

Sometime you need the teething ring, sometimes the bull ring, and others...you can just toss them in the deep end of the pool.

I hope he runs the star. I hope he challenges the shooters.

[jimd]

I just shot my first star @ A6... after talking to a few guys about how to do it, it wasn't a big deal.

I would definitely suggest letting folks know how to shoot it, after hearing horror stories of starting at the bottom and trying to follow the plates around.

[TMC]

sperman, on May 18 2009, 06:53 AM, said:

For better or worse, we have a small group of loyal shooters who only shoot 1 or 2 local matches a month. They don't like being "challenged" quite as much as the rest of the shooters. I would prefer not to alienate them, but the majority will enjoy shooting the Star. If there is no legal way to do this they will have to shoot it or take the 50 point penalty. If someone chose not to engage this target, would it be 1 FTE or 5?

This is a whole debate in itself. If you have to hand hold people do you really want them shooting at your club? Will they help out when needed or do they just show up, shoot, complain about "hard" stages and leave? And this topic goes both ways, I have seen new people who are eager to build stages but try to buld them to "slow" down the open or fast guys. What they find out is the faster guys still win the stage and the new people get frustrated. There needs to be a balance between challenging and fun. If its not fun why show up?

I second the other posts about putting it towards the end of the stage at reasonable distance and have people deal with it. Many of the new folks will get allot of self satisifaction if they get them all but if they don't at least they haven't run out of ammo in the middle of the stage. If its a disappearing target (no penalty mike), depending on the length of the course and total stage points available, some people won't shoot it at all.

[sperman]

Thanks for all of the great ideas. I was trying to figure out a way to shoot the star at the first match without it counting. I'll see if the MD is open to the side match idea. I was also thinking of locking it so it wouldn't spin the first time it's used for score.

Scott