[TheHun]

OK here it goes:

I am currently USPSA A class and IDPA MA been shooting these games for 2 years.
I often change my training plan and my drills. What needs more work gets more attention etc.
Currently I do four days of dry fire (about 1 to 1 and 1/2 hours a day) two days Steve Anderson style on the other two days my own drills.
I live fire once a week 350 rounds where I work on recoil management - the only thing what can not be done at home doing dry fire.
I shoot one match a week, occasionally two matches.

In dry fire I work on good techniques-mechanics, on the live fire days I just try to learn something new every day.

Where should I invest more time to achieve that GM card? (I do not practice classifiers nor I re-shoot them - I know it won't be easy the old fashioned way...)
Does shooting more live rounds will help?
How many life fire days the upper level shooters have?
Well what is next?

Any help-opinions appreciated Guys,

This post has been edited by TheHun: 12 May 2009 - 09:53 PM

[LPatterson]

I've never stayed in a Holiday Inn Express but I have been listening to Lanny Bassham's Mental Management for Shooting Sports CD and his philosophy is that 1 day a week is worse than none at all. His recommendations range from 4-6 times a week depending on what skill level you are working toward. I don't have his resources so it is 3 days a week with the 617, group shooting at a steel A zone at 25 yards. Need 10 10 shot strings in a row without a miss before going on to other drills. With the 625 it is usually partial targets at 15 yards with shooting boxes. A common drill is 3 targets 6' apart using the most predominate partial pattern of the next match. 2 each outside box, reload 2 each middle, reload 2 each other outside. Some days work both directions, other days only right to left, I am terrible controlling the muzzle on R - L. 625 practice is limited to 288 rounds which is what fits in 2 Plano 3600 boxes.

[edwin garcia]

TheHun, on May 12 2009, 11:48 PM, said:

Does shooting more live rounds will help?
How many life fire days the upper level shooters have?

Definitely, Yes! As much as my day job and family permits.
I think what's important is the structure of your practice. I would start on my weaker skills
and try to incorporate it in my training(both live and dry fire).

My 2 cents

[Cy Soto]

LPatterson, on May 13 2009, 08:21 AM, said:

...I have been listening to Lanny Bassham's Mental Management for Shooting Sports CD and his philosophy is that 1 day a week is worse than none at all.

This is one philosophy that I don't understand, but I guess this is why he is a two-time Olympic Medalist and I am not.

[CHA-LEE]

TheHun> I don't know if this is the right approach, but I try to mainly practice the stuff that I suck at. Make sure solid basics are burned in and you are proficient at them. But I think practicing the same stuff you are already good at does not move your skill set forward. That and I know for myself, every leap in skill set I have gained was directly due to me forcing myself to shoot beyond my self imposed comfort zone. Whether that be shooting faster, moving faster, working on tighter/further shots or mixing up the shooting order of things to force myself to use all of these skills in a concert. Its too easy to go out to the range and practice things that are fun or that you are already proficient at. For me, that never really made me better. I have found that once you feel confidence in being able to champion the task at hand it is a lot easier to let the "Auto Pilot" take over and get it done after the buzzer goes off. If you come up to a stage and don't feel 100% confident about a certain section of the COF, then THAT is what you should practice to overcome that mental block of thinking you will not be able to do it correctly. The GM's I have seen shoot excel at having 100% confidence in any COF or shooting challenge they step up to. Having that "I can do all of this" attitude goes a long way in doing well.

I have also noticed that the better shooters are able to point shoot targets further and further out because their shooting index, grip, stance, and movement is that much more refined. If you can point shoot at max speed out to 10 - 15 yards and still maintain decent hits that will make a huge difference in your stage times. This comes back to the ever elusive "See only what you need to see" for a given shot. A C class shooter needs to "See" a lot more than a GM does for any given shot to ensure good hits simply because their basic shooting index, grip, stance, and movement are not as refined as a GM's. I know that as my skill sets get better I am needing to "See" less and less for any given shot which allows me to shoot/move faster and still maintain accuracy. Its a never ending ebb and flow of finding the right "See only what you need to see" balance for your ever changing skill set. If you are using a C class shooters level of "Seeing what you need to see" but you are moving and shooting at an A class level, you are doing nothing but wasting time.

I don't think anyone can tell another person exactly what they need to do to get from point A to point B when it comes to improving their skill sets. Everyone is different and we all require a unique amount of time and practice to master any single thing. Your best chance of succeeding is to become the best student/teacher for yourself. Sure, others can point out things that you can do better. But really, its up to you to step back and take a look at what you are doing and make the decision as to what needs to be changed or worked on in order to get better. To make it simple, I can't tell you when you are hungry or not. Only you can know the real answer to that.

[Flexmoney]

CHA-LEE, on May 13 2009, 01:34 PM, said:

I have also noticed that the better shooters are able to point shoot targets further and further out because their shooting index, grip, stance, and movement is that much more refined. If you can point shoot at max speed out to 10 - 15 yards and still maintain decent hits that will make a huge difference in your stage times.

I'd be careful not to confuse a superior index with point shooting.

[XRe]

CHA-LEE, on May 13 2009, 12:34 PM, said:

TheHun> I don't know if this is the right approach, but I try to mainly practice the stuff that I suck at. Make sure solid basics are burned in and you are proficient at them. But I think practicing the same stuff you are already good at does not move your skill set forward. That and I know for myself, every leap in skill set I have gained was directly due to me forcing myself to shoot beyond my self imposed comfort zone. Whether that be shooting faster, moving faster, working on tighter/further shots or mixing up the shooting order of things to force myself to use all of these skills in a concert. Its too easy to go out to the range and practice things that are fun or that you are already proficient at. For me, that never really made me better. I have found that once you feel confidence in being able to champion the task at hand it is a lot easier to let the "Auto Pilot" take over and get it done after the buzzer goes off. If you come up to a stage and don't feel 100% confident about a certain section of the COF, then THAT is what you should practice to overcome that mental block of thinking you will not be able to do it correctly. The GM's I have seen shoot excel at having 100% confidence in any COF or shooting challenge they step up to. Having that "I can do all of this" attitude goes a long way in doing well.

+1 - that attitude and methodology will serve you well...

Quote

I have also noticed that the better shooters are able to point shoot targets further and further out because their shooting index, grip, stance, and movement is that much more refined. If you can point shoot at max speed out to 10 - 15 yards and still maintain decent hits that will make a huge difference in your stage times. This comes back to the ever elusive "See only what you need to see" for a given shot. A C class shooter needs to "See" a lot more than a GM does for any given shot to ensure good hits simply because their basic shooting index, grip, stance, and movement are not as refined as a GM's. I know that as my skill sets get better I am needing to "See" less and less for any given shot which allows me to shoot/move faster and still maintain accuracy. Its a never ending ebb and flow of finding the right "See only what you need to see" balance for your ever changing skill set. If you are using a C class shooters level of "Seeing what you need to see" but you are moving and shooting at an A class level, you are doing nothing but wasting time.

Definitely do not agree with parts of this paragraph. I don't "point shoot" anything, solely based on index (the culmination of grip, stance, etc). And, GMs don't need to see any more or less than anyone else to make a particular shot - you still need to see exactly what is required to place and call the shot.

What changes is this - as your index, your understanding of your NPA, etc, improve and become more refined, you will find the gun aligned where it needs to be much more quickly. Your speed of vision will improve. Your understanding of what you actually need to see to make a particular shot will improve. Your ability to call the shot consistently will improve.

This means that you will inherently recognize what you need to see at a sooner moment than you previously did, you will tend to have fewer corrections to the gun position to get it to the right spot, and you will more emphatically and confidently call the shot you broke. But that doesn't relieve you of needing to see anything more or less. If anything, I find that I need to see more as time goes on, not less - the frame of time available to do the seeing gets compressed, so more detail must be seen to achieve the same volume of input. Seeing little things becomes more important for me, not less, to insure solid performance.

This might look like semantics, but its an important distinction. And, discard any notion of "point shooting", per se...

Quote

I don't think anyone can tell another person exactly what they need to do to get from point A to point B when it comes to improving their skill sets. Everyone is different and we all require a unique amount of time and practice to master any single thing. Your best chance of succeeding is to become the best student/teacher for yourself. Sure, others can point out things that you can do better. But really, its up to you to step back and take a look at what you are doing and make the decision as to what needs to be changed or worked on in order to get better. To make it simple, I can't tell you when you are hungry or not. Only you can know the real answer to that.

Hmmmm.... partially true. You're definitely best served by seeking to learn for yourself what you need to excel, what works best for your temperment and personality, and given your financial and time limitations. However, I think most GMs (or Ms, or As) could give you a really solid idea of a lot of things that every shooter is going to need to learn, and a lot of good ideas on how to go about learning them. I can give you a map - I can't tell you how fast you're going to drive, or how many rest stops to take. I also can't make you start the car, pull out of the parking, or stay on the road

The simple fact is that most of us can't get to the range 4-6 times a week. But, for the vast majority of the skills we use, dry fire is extremely effective practice - this is not something that is true in the context Bassham is discussing. You can effectively practice 7 days a week, if you like, without ever hitting the range. The skills you won't be able to put to use are recoil control, and in the dry fire time, and live fire as much as you can manage - CHA-LEE's first paragraph above applies for at least part of that practice. And, accept that, unless you can afford to wear out a gun a year or more, you're probably not going to beat Eric G - but you can get a heck of a lot closer to it, fast...

[lugnut]

Flexmoney, on May 13 2009, 02:16 PM, said:

I'd be careful not to confuse a superior index with point shooting.

Wow- that statement alone is an eye opener! Awesome.

[Jake Di Vita]

I'd focus on increasing the intensity of your practice.

Push the ragged edge more, especially when you make it out for live fire.

[CHA-LEE]

I knew the big dogs would jump in on this one and set me straight. Thanks!!! I am learning all of this stuff as well and figured an opinion of a "lesser" shooter would be of some value to show the vantage point differences between skill classes. Maybe its semantics but when I say Point Shooting, I mean that essentially when you bring the gun up on target and take a fraction of a second to validate the sight picture (Seeing only what you need to see) its "good enough" to enable good quality hits without needing adjustments. I think Flex states it the best with "Superior Index". Someone with a lesser "Shooting Index" would need to make minor sight alignment adjustments before they deem the sight picture acceptable to break the shot.

[davecutts]

You can shoot more, and just be pissing away your time, and primers. First off when I go to the range to practice I want to have a goal in mind. It might be something I did poorly at a previous match, or a skill I want to improve. For me focused practice, where I analyze what i am doing break down the gross shooting problem into fundamental elements my conscious mine can handle, is the only why I learn. Then I practice those bits till I get it, building a skill I can put away for latter use. I go back and put it all together. At which point I look at where I improved and where I didn't, and start all over again.

There is a G in front of the M on my member ship card.

When I go to the range once a week I do see improvement (all be it slowly) if I keep up my dry fire routine. If I'm on the range four or five days a week I see much more rapid improvement, and I don't have to dry fire as much (the wife does demand some of my time).

This post has been edited by davecutts: 13 May 2009 - 09:36 PM

[ong45]

Phil Strader claims to have shot less than 50k rounds ( if i remember correctly) in his lifetime. Can be done but i suspect he's the exception rather than the rule.
You seem to have a prettty solid dryfire regimen in place, i don't know if doubling that is going to get you where you want to be. Someone said a while back that this isn't the dryfire olympics, you gotta put the rounds downrange.
I got a good piece of advice when i was an M, famous shooter and a good bud said " you need to shoot more matches "
ymmv

This post has been edited by ong45: 14 May 2009 - 08:41 AM

[L-10_shooter]

Matches are my live fire practice. I try and video each stage then look at them closely and work on the lacking skills, mostly movement/reloads.

[JThompson]

99.9% of my practice is live, but I'm the exception. I used to shoot until I was knee deep in brass, but figured out that after 200 rounds I tend to lose the ability to learn as fast, so my practices now are in that range. Also, i never leave than range on a negative. I always make sure there is a high point to think about rather than a screw up.



JT

This post has been edited by JThompson: 14 May 2009 - 11:54 AM

[Ben Stoeger]

In my opinion, if more practice is feasible, it is a good thing. I have been shooting quite a bit more this year than I did last year, and I am improving much faster (go figure). You just need to decide what level of involvement you are comfortable with and stick with it.

I notice you said you don’t practice classifiers. That may be something you want to change. I am not necessarily saying you should become a reshoot king or practice classifiers that you plan on shooting. What you may want to try is setting up a classifier that you shot at last weeks match and working on it. You can see how much better you can really do. The good thing about classifiers is that they are like a standardized test. You can get good feedback on where you stand and talk with other guys on the forum about that same test, and how to get better.

Food for thought.

[TheHun]

Jake Di Vita, on May 13 2009, 11:50 AM, said:

I'd focus on increasing the intensity of your practice.

Push the ragged edge more, especially when you make it out for live fire.

Jake what do you mean by intensity of my practice. I don't get it.

I am not sure about pushing the ragged edge in live fire. I want A's always. What would be to point to practice C or maybe D hits???
I let my vision dictate the speed (so I do not have a "speed switch") if I get C's or D's in practice it's time to refocus...

[TheHun]

Ben Stoeger, on May 14 2009, 12:09 PM, said:

In my opinion, if more practice is feasible, it is a good thing. I have been shooting quite a bit more this year than I did last year, and I am improving much faster (go figure). You just need to decide what level of involvement you are comfortable with and stick with it.

I notice you said you don’t practice classifiers. That may be something you want to change. I am not necessarily saying you should become a reshoot king or practice classifiers that you plan on shooting. What you may want to try is setting up a classifier that you shot at last weeks match and working on it. You can see how much better you can really do. The good thing about classifiers is that they are like a standardized test. You can get good feedback on where you stand and talk with other guys on the forum about that same test, and how to get better.

Food for thought.

Ben,

I might give it a shot.
If I will I will only shoot last week's classifiers.

Either way somebody gonna pick on me, I will be called either a Paper Master or a Sand Bagger.

This post has been edited by TheHun: 15 May 2009 - 08:34 PM

[XRe]

TheHun, on May 15 2009, 10:13 PM, said:

I am not sure about pushing the ragged edge in live fire. I want A's always. What would be to point to practice C or maybe D hits???
I let my vision dictate the speed (so I do not have a "speed switch") if I get C's or D's in practice it's time to refocus...

If you don't break eggs, you'll never make an omelet...

If you're not pushing to the point of mistakes in practice (and I mean even ... <gasp> ... missing the target), you are not pushing. You're not growing. You're not finding and then expanding the boundaries of what's possible for your shooting. That doesn't mean throw mikes for giggles. Push it. Hard. Until the wheels fall off. Then back it down to where its just back within control. Every time you do this, the meaning of "ragged edge" gets pushed out... and your 80% mark right along with it....

[TheHun]

davecutts, on May 13 2009, 09:32 PM, said:

You can shoot more, and just be pissing away your time, and primers. First off when I go to the range to practice I want to have a goal in mind. It might be something I did poorly at a previous match, or a skill I want to improve. For me focused practice, where I analyze what i am doing break down the gross shooting problem into fundamental elements my conscious mine can handle, is the only why I learn. Then I practice those bits till I get it, building a skill I can put away for latter use. I go back and put it all together. At which point I look at where I improved and where I didn't, and start all over again.

There is a G in front of the M on my member ship card.

When I go to the range once a week I do see improvement (all be it slowly) if I keep up my dry fire routine. If I'm on the range four or five days a week I see much more rapid improvement, and I don't have to dry fire as much (the wife does demand some of my time).

Dave,

Good points.

[TheHun]

XRe, on May 15 2009, 08:19 PM, said:

TheHun, on May 15 2009, 10:13 PM, said:

I am not sure about pushing the ragged edge in live fire. I want A's always. What would be to point to practice C or maybe D hits???
I let my vision dictate the speed (so I do not have a "speed switch") if I get C's or D's in practice it's time to refocus...

If you don't break eggs, you'll never make an omelet...

If you're not pushing to the point of mistakes in practice (and I mean even ... <gasp> ... missing the target), you are not pushing. You're not growing. You're not finding and then expanding the boundaries of what's possible for your shooting. That doesn't mean throw mikes for giggles. Push it. Hard. Until the wheels fall off. Then back it down to where its just back within control. Every time you do this, the meaning of "ragged edge" gets pushed out... and your 80% mark right along with it....

Dave,
That is where I refocus, and start going for A's again. Push it till that point, than I refocus.
Still not sure tho how to push it...if I try to go faster it never happens, hits will be all over, tens muscles --> bad time. I need to be more relaxed if I want faster times. The timer always backs this up.





For now I think I will go with :
1 live fire day at the beginning of the week
3 days of dry fire
1 live fire day again at the end of the week, (totaling approx 450 rounds for the two days of live fire)
1 maybe 2 matches at the weekend.

Looking at 600 rounds or even more if I shoot two matches / week.
Now I need to find a sugar mommy

This post has been edited by TheHun: 15 May 2009 - 08:35 PM

[davecutts]

THat looks like a good plan. If you run out of goals when you go to the range join Rob's Drillmaster club. He has some great drills (and a few stinkers) to shoot, provides a thoughtful analysis, and now some pretty cool videos of the new drill. No I am not a sales man for for Leatham, nor am I getting any kick back.

[Jake Di Vita]

You can always redefine your area of acceptability for match time. If you aren't pushing yourself to the point where you are missing the target in practice (whether that is A zone or cardboard) then you aren't really improving.

Improvement comes from pushing your ability to recognize the earliest point your gun is pointed at the target.

You aren't training to shoot C's and D's, you are training yourself to see more faster. This also applies in dry fire (especially).

Try it for a month, and make sure you keep detailed records of your live fire and dry fire results. Par times, hit factors, everything that can be measured and observed should be written down.

Efficiency in shooting lies in firing the gun at the earliest possible moment the bullet will impact the target.

[davecutts]

"I'm not lazy, I'm an efficiency expert."

I've heard it over and over again. You have to put in the work to get good, but when you are behind the gun, or on a stage it fits.

[Pharaoh Bender]

If I had it my way, I would go to the range every day for at least two hours.
Unfortunately, my schedule, and my bank account prohibits me from doing so. So...

I dryfire at least an hour every day. There really is no excuse not to.
When I have the opportunity to go to the range, I practice the same exact drills that I do in dryfire, and compare the results and times.

When you dryfire, accept nothing but the purest of alphas.

[Doublehaul]

I know when I was pushing hard to break 80 seconds on the IDPA classifier, I bumped my shooting up to 200 rds a day 5 days a week and dropped 13 seconds in 3 weeks. I did the same thing on Bill Drill, El Prez and the 2 A's @ 25 yards.